# Can anyone defend the Admin Syria drive? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417 "2013-09-09T16:04:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/401 "2013-09-17T01:12:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > However, his first message on what crossing the line meant was about the use of military force, so I think it’s fair to say that it was “military force” all along. Wouldn’t that mean that after he was convinced Assad’s regime gassed the people in August, his intent to strike was made on the basis of what he has determined to be right in August. If so then Donald Rump’s point is extremely well taken. The righties have pressed the narrative that Obama was backed into a corner because of the red line comment s year before. Then they try to add that Putin bailed a bungling president out. So no, the decision was made on its own and with the upper hand over Putin both morally and stature. The stature is his ability and option to set cruise missiles a flyin’ because he is in charge of a bad ass military machine. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/402 "2013-09-17T01:49:17Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > . > And the Jewish lobby supports the strike. What is this “Jewish lobby” you speak of and who is it’s head? Is it like the “negro lobby”? I ask because I’m unaware of any group which calls itsel that despite various anti-Semitic rants. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/403 "2013-09-17T04:37:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Keep these sorts of personal attacks in The BBQ Pit, not Great Debates. > > [/Moderating] uh huh. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/404 "2013-09-17T04:38:42Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Your link does not say what you said it says. This statement is not true: > > “Reid had to delay voting on it because there was no support.” That’s exactly what it means. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/405 "2013-09-17T04:50:11Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Going to go out on a limb here, but I’d say his chances of reelection are non-existent. If both houses vote no I’d say his chances of finishing the term are reduced. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/406 "2013-09-17T05:27:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That’s exactly what it means. No. Not even close. You made that interpretation up in order to say I was wrong based on a link to a newspaper report. Now reply to the rest of my response. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/407 "2013-09-17T05:33:03Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > No. Not even close. You made that interpretation up in order to say I was wrong based on a link to a newspaper report. Now reply to the rest of my response. From the article: Senate delays Syria vote as Obama loses momentum… President Obama’s push for congressional approval for military airstrikes in Syria ran aground Monday, forcing Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., to delay a procedural vote as opposition builds among senators in both parties. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/408 "2013-09-17T06:45:37Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Why? Seems clear enough to me, especially in light of other things they have been saying. What they want to convey is that we are planning a small series of strikes that are meant to be punishments for the use of chemical weapons, not destabilizing attacks meant to change the current balance of power in the civil war struggle. We aren’t planning to kick in the doors, put boots on the ground or launch a systematic attack on Syria’s infrastructure, C&C or logistics, but instead this is a message to Assad…don’t use chemical weapons. If you want to whack your people in job lots, The World™ is perfectly fine with you doing it the old fashioned way with machine guns, artillery, planes and tanks. Using chemical weapons crosses the line. > > Seems a viable enough strategy to us, considering what a mine field Syria is from the US’s perspective. Never heard of “mission creep”? Perhaps you weren’t around during the Vietnam war to understand how a “police action” can escalate to a war with 500,000 US troops. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/409 "2013-09-17T06:48:19Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Wouldn’t that mean that after he was convinced Assad’s regime gassed the people in August, his intent to strike was made on the basis of what he has determined to be right in August. > > If so then Donald Rump’s point is extremely well taken. The righties have pressed the narrative that Obama was backed into a corner because of the red line comment s year before. Then they try to add that Putin bailed a bungling president out. > > So no, the decision was made on its own and with the upper hand over Putin both morally and stature. The stature is his ability and option to set cruise missiles a flyin’ because he is in charge of a bad ass military machine. Clinton used the missile strikes as punishment thing and it achieved nothing. Why would it be any different now? Your “bad ass military machine” would only be effective if used, and Obama has ruled that out already. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/410 "2013-09-17T07:13:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > From the article: Senate delays Syria vote as Obama loses momentum… President Obama’s push for congressional approval for military airstrikes in Syria ran aground Monday, forcing Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., to delay a procedural vote as opposition builds among senators in both parties. According to this link to USA Today … > **[How congressional support lines up for Syria strike](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/09/08/tallying-congressional-support-syria-strike/2782991/)** > > Database: Tallying congressional support for Syria strike The tally on Sept. 10, when the president asked Congress to postpone voting debunks your completely flawed interpretation of a two day earlier USA Today report where you claimed there was **“no support”** for a Syria strike in the US Senate. This vote count has six Republican Senators supporting a strike out of forty six. It shows five Democrats of fifty four total Dems voting against. It shows fifteen Dems voting in favor. It shows sixteen Republicans voting against it. That leaves fifty seven undecided. So out of thirty four undecided Democrats and twenty three undecided Republicans to get to sixty the Bill would need thirty nine yes votes to pass. That is absolutely no where’s near a declaration that there is ‘no support’ to strike Syria in the Senate. You don’t get to count ‘undecided’ as NO. You’d need sixty no votes to get close to saying there was ‘no support’ in the US Senate. I am right and you are decidedly wrong. I’ve given you other factors why Romney would have likely easily got a yes vote to strike Syria in the Senate. Pro-Israel lobby backs US strikes on Syria - Features - Al Jazeera … > **[Pro-Israel lobby backs strikes](https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2013/9/4/pro-israel-lobby-backs-us-strikes-on-syria)** > > AIPAC and some influential Republicans join forces to push Barack Obama for hawkish action on Syria. Sep 4, 2013 … Pro-Israel lobby backs US strikes on Syria … and the Israel lobby’s two most influential groups announced their support Tuesday for a … As part of the 39th Air Base Wing, the 5,000 US airmen who reside here could be drawn … The Organized Jewish Community: Wall-to-wall Support for a Strike … [The Organized Jewish Community: Wall-to-wall Support for a Strike on Syria – The Occidental Observer](http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2013/09/the-organized-jewish-community-wall-to-wall-s)… Sep 6, 2013 … The broad-based Jewish support for a military strike on Syria is … supported air strikes “in response to reports that the Syrian … The amount of money the Israel Lobby is able to muster for an effort like this is staggering. Adelson New Obama Ally as Jewish Groups Back Syria Strike … [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-09-04/adelson-new-obama-ally-as-jewish-groups-back-syri](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-09-04/adelson-new-obama-ally-as-jewish-groups-back-syri)… Sep 4, 2013 … Lobbying on Syria has inspired coalitions of the unlikely, aligning President … The support Obama is getting from pro-Israel groups in the U.S. is … 1 showed 48 percent opposed, while 29 percent favored air strikes in Syria. Is Israel pushing for a strike on Syria? - [CSMonitor.com](http://CSMonitor.com) [http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2013/0909/Is-Israel-pushing-for-a-strike-on-Syr](http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2013/0909/Is-Israel-pushing-for-a-strike-on-Syr)… Sep 9, 2013 … Israelis support a US strike on Syria, but their larger concern is … wrote former Israeli Air Force general Amos Yadlin and Avner Golov in a paper … pro-Israel lobby has pressed congressmen to support the proposed strike, … You do know that politically the Pro-Israel Lobbies in the US are very much aligned with the Republican Party as it exists today on military and foreign policy matters. Could you explain why a President Romney for instance would not receive the backing for a strike that Obama is getting? That makes the issue quite easy to vote yes for Democrats since the US Jewish Community votes heavily in favor of Democrats in every election. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/411 "2013-09-17T07:25:42Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > Clinton used the missile strikes as punishment thing and it achieved nothing. Why would it be any different now? What do you mean it achieved nothing? Four years later a Republican President bombed heavily and invaded with tens of thousands of troops on the ground to secure the WMD that US president claimed was being hidden there. There was no WMD to be found. We can’t know if Saddam Hussein would have been emboldened after blocking inspectors from full access to the sites they wanted to inspect which was the issue and Clinton did nothing in response. But S.H. did not pursue any CW programs of nuclear programs after the Operation Desert Fox. So you are wrong to conclude it achieved nothing. > [@Doggo](#): > > Your “bad ass military machine” would only be effective if used, and Obama has ruled that out already. Obama has not ruled out the use of force if the diplomatic options fail. He and Kerry have vigorously stated so. How can you make such a claim in the face of what Obama and his officials have said and done the past week? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/412 "2013-09-17T07:38:42Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > Never heard of “mission creep”? > Perhaps you weren’t around during the Vietnam war to understand how a “police action” can escalate to a war with 500,000 US troops. Circumstances are different-especially politically. It didn’t happen in Libya or in Bosnia or in Kosovo, which are far more recent examples. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/413 "2013-09-17T07:59:35Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > … understand how a “police action” can escalate to a war with 500,000 US troops. The term “police action” is almost exclusively related to Korea, not Viet Nam. Korea was an invasion, Viet Nam, a civil war. You are disoriented. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/414 "2013-09-17T08:35:03Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Tell that to Yemen. Or Pakistan. “Cautious” doesn’t mean “never using military force”. It means (or at least in the way I used it it means) “thoroughly considering the options and implications and only using the amount of force necessary to achieve the objective”. Drone strikes, although certainly not morally neutral or without consequence, represent a relatively small military commitment as opposed to bombing runs or “boots on the ground”. And flapping one’s gums about invading Iran or whatever the hawks are talking about these days would definitely be considered “incautious”. In short, I’m saying that he has not tended to make idle threats nor overcommit in the past. A miscalculation as to how the other side will react to a statement is not the same as making an “offhand remark”. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/415 "2013-09-17T14:14:48Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > According to this link to USA Today … > > [USA TODAY](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/09/08/tallying-congressional-support-syria-strike/2782991/) > > The tally on Sept. 10, when the president asked Congress to postpone voting debunks your completely flawed interpretation of a two day earlier USA Today report where you claimed there was **“no support”** for a Syria strike in the US Senate. I posted a FACT. Reid delayed the vote. If he had the votes he would have called them up. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/416 "2013-09-17T14:16:20Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > According to this link to USA Today … > > [USA TODAY](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/09/08/tallying-congressional-support-syria-strike/2782991/) > > The tally on Sept. 10, when the president asked Congress to postpone voting debunks your completely flawed interpretation of a two day earlier USA Today report where you claimed there was **“no support”** for a Syria strike in the US Senate. I posted a FACT. Reid delayed the vote. If he had the votes he would have called them up. He doesn’t have the support to do this. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/417 "2013-09-17T14:24:43Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > According to this link to USA Today … > > [USA TODAY](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/09/08/tallying-congressional-support-syria-strike/2782991/) > > The tally on Sept. 10, when the president asked Congress to postpone voting debunks your completely flawed interpretation of a two day earlier USA Today report where you claimed there was **“no support”** for a Syria strike in the US Senate. > > This vote count has six Republican Senators supporting a strike out of forty six. It shows five Democrats of fifty four total Dems voting against. It shows fifteen Dems voting in favor. It shows sixteen Republicans voting against it. That leaves fifty seven undecided. So out of thirty four undecided Democrats and twenty three undecided Republicans to get to sixty the Bill would need thirty nine yes votes to pass. > > That is absolutely no where’s near a declaration that there is ‘no support’ to strike Syria in the Senate. > > You don’t get to count ‘undecided’ as NO. > > You’d need sixty no votes to get close to saying there was ‘no support’ in the US Senate. > > I am right and you are decidedly wrong. > > I’ve given you other factors why Romney would have likely easily got a yes vote to strike Syria in the Senate. > > Pro-Israel lobby backs US strikes on Syria - Features - Al Jazeera … > [Pro-Israel lobby backs US strikes on Syria | Features | Al Jazeera](http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/09/20139414329291833.html) > Sep 4, 2013 … Pro-Israel lobby backs US strikes on Syria … and the Israel lobby’s two most influential groups announced their support Tuesday for a … As part of the 39th Air Base Wing, the 5,000 US airmen who reside here could be drawn … > The Organized Jewish Community: Wall-to-wall Support for a Strike … > [The Organized Jewish Community: Wall-to-wall Support for a Strike on Syria – The Occidental Observer](http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2013/09/the-organized-jewish-community-wall-to-wall-s)… > Sep 6, 2013 … The broad-based Jewish support for a military strike on Syria is … supported air strikes “in response to reports that the Syrian … The amount of money the Israel Lobby is able to muster for an effort like this is staggering. > Adelson New Obama Ally as Jewish Groups Back Syria Strike … > [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-09-04/adelson-new-obama-ally-as-jewish-groups-back-syri](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-09-04/adelson-new-obama-ally-as-jewish-groups-back-syri)… > Sep 4, 2013 … Lobbying on Syria has inspired coalitions of the unlikely, aligning President … The support Obama is getting from pro-Israel groups in the U.S. is … 1 showed 48 percent opposed, while 29 percent favored air strikes in Syria. > Is Israel pushing for a strike on Syria? - [CSMonitor.com](http://CSMonitor.com) > [http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2013/0909/Is-Israel-pushing-for-a-strike-on-Syr](http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2013/0909/Is-Israel-pushing-for-a-strike-on-Syr)… > Sep 9, 2013 … Israelis support a US strike on Syria, but their larger concern is … wrote former Israeli Air Force general Amos Yadlin and Avner Golov in a paper … pro-Israel lobby has pressed congressmen to support the proposed strike, … > > You do know that politically the Pro-Israel Lobbies in the US are very much aligned with the Republican Party as it exists today on military and foreign policy matters. Could you explain why a President Romney for instance would not receive the backing for a strike that Obama is getting? > > That makes the issue quite easy to vote yes for Democrats since the US Jewish Community votes heavily in favor of Democrats in every election. Er… Your source, the occidental observer declares itself to be a promoter of “white interests” and “white culture” and the article relies heavily on VDARE founded by the racist Peter Brimelow which is so extreme in its racial views that when John Derbyshire was fired for racism by that bastion of knee-jerk liberalism The National Review he immediately went over to them to expound on the dangers of “them.” Of course they’re going to blame “the Jews” and others for problems of the white people in America. If they could geta away with blaming the Jews for irritable bowel syndrome, they would. What’s surprising is that such a self-styled progressive as yourself would use them as a source. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/418 "2013-09-17T14:30:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The term “police action” is almost exclusively related to Korea, not Viet Nam. Korea was an invasion, Viet Nam, a civil war. You are disoriented. I don’t want to start a hijack, but it Vietnam wasn’t an invasion then the Soviets didnt invade Afghanistan or Hungary in the 50s. When you send an army in to prop up your puppet government you put into place that’s an invasion. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/419 "2013-09-17T14:30:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Romney would not have public or political support and the international support would be as it is today. Nothing would change. Political support for Obama is somewhat tainted. > [@](#): > > John McCain: Some Republicans Resist Obama ‘Because They Dislike’ Him > Paige LavenderThe Huffington PostSep 16, 2013 > Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) said some Republicans resist President Barack Obama and his proposal for a U.S. military strike in Syria because they aren’t big fans of the president. > > “I think there’s probably some… that [oppose it] just because they dislike President Obama,” McCain said. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/420 "2013-09-17T14:41:19Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Political support for Obama is somewhat tainted. Just admit you’re wrong and move on. Obama doesn’t have the support he needed for a vote and Reid acted on it to avoid the embarrassment Cameron went through. And don’t try to throw the absolutism card down as an argument. Support means greater than 50%. Right now he doesn’t have it from either house, the public at large, or internationally. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417.md?page=22)