# Can anyone defend the Admin Syria drive? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417 "2013-09-09T16:04:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/561 "2013-09-24T20:59:25Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Yep, well done Vlad Putin. Do you know or can you explain any legitimate reason that Putin waited this long to accept Obama’s June 2012 proposal to dismantle Assad’s CW arsenal before some were used to kill babies and their mothers. It seems you have not noticed Putin’s entirely self-serving, and murderous, agenda having say on his ass more worked about the $30 Billion Assad owes him than worried about Assad gassing babies to death for what? For sport. It is odd how conservatives view awkwardly at what Putin despicably has done and has sided with. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/562 "2013-09-24T21:24:00Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > I mean his bullshit “red line” and subsequent failed attempt to manufacture support for an entirely self-serving, and murderous, agenda. Seriously BrokenBriton can you or anyone here defend Putin’s delay in waiting for babies to be gassed before agreeing to Obama’s request long ago for his pressure to get CW out of the war zone? This process could have started years ago. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/563 "2013-09-24T21:59:18Z")
The case against Assad and/or Putin is entirely sufficient without any need to suggest they have some specific malign intent towards babies. Please don’t do that. Now, I can no more enforce that request than I can flap my arms and fly into the treetops. Still, please. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/564 "2013-09-24T22:07:17Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > OK, so he might well have blithely ignored any interference from the UN, but the awesome power of the country that used to be Great Britain, that stopped him dead? Er, no. Do try to keep up. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/565 "2013-09-24T22:10:12Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Seriously BrokenBriton can you or anyone here defend Putin’s delay in waiting for babies to be gassed before agreeing to Obama’s request long ago for his pressure to get CW out of the war zone? > > This process could have started years ago. There is no proof of how the release of gas occurred. Zero, nada. That makes everything subsequent straight out of Steven King. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/566 "2013-09-24T22:14:52Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Er, no. Do try to keep up. Apparently, the is some subtle and complex interpretation of this remark… > [@](#): > > …For which we have the UK Parliament to thank… …that has eluded me. Perhaps you will clarify? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/567 "2013-09-24T22:16:59Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > There is no proof of how the release of gas occurred. Zero, nada. That makes everything subsequent straight out of Steven King. IIRC, didn’t the recent UN report blame Assad? For that matter, when high level Iranian officials blame Assad(admittedly since walking back unconvincingly those claims) it seems a bit silly to criticize people for believing Assad behaved like a Baathist dictator. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/568 "2013-09-24T22:44:15Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > There is no proof of how the release of gas occurred. Zero, nada. That makes everything subsequent straight out of Steven King. Point is had Putin acted earlier to dismantle these weapons, stop using them, and enable UN inspectors to inventory and secure them, some babies may not be gassed to death now. > [@](#): > > “On the basis of the evidence obtained during the investigation of the Ghouta incident, the conclusion is that chemical weapons have been used in the ongoing conflict between the parties in the Syrian Arab Republic, also against civilians, including children, on a relatively large scale,” said the report by chief U.N. investigator Ake Sellstrom of Sweden. > > “In particular, the environmental, chemical and medical samples we have collected provide clear and convincing evidence that surface-to-surface rockets containing the nerve agent sarin were used,” it said. > > The report said the weather conditions on August 21 ensured that as many people as possible were injured or killed. Temperatures were falling between 2 a.m. and 5 a.m., it said, which meant that air was moving downwards toward the ground. > > “Chemical weapons use in such meteorological conditions maximizes their potential impact as the heavy gas can stay close to the ground and penetrate into lower levels of buildings and constructions where many people were seeking shelter,” it said. > > [U.N. confirms sarin used in Syria attack; U.S., UK, France blame Assad | Reuters](http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE98F0ED20130916?irpc=932) So why did Putin put off what he could have done years ago. Why didnt he start this when Obama proposed it? Why do you applaud his no turning to yes after Kids were gassed? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/569 "2013-09-25T00:05:18Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > IIRC, didn’t the recent UN report blame Assad? > > . No. It said CW was used but not by whom. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/570 "2013-09-25T00:36:18Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Apparently, the is some subtle and complex interpretation of this remark… > …that has eluded me. Perhaps you will clarify? I think what he’s trying to say, and I believe there may be _some_ truth to it, is that Obama didn’t decide to go to Congress until after he saw that the British Parliament denied authority to Cameron. Had the BP not weighed in, or worse, weighed in in favor of Cameron’s wishes. Obama might have felt emboldened to act without consulting Congress. We can’t know if that’s true, of course, but by zig-zagging his way into our current situation, I think Obama has left himself open to that sort of charge. I would not state it in such certain terms as **BrokenBriton** does, but I do believe it is a possibility not to be simply dismissed as some fringe idea. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/571 "2013-09-25T02:05:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > We can’t know if that’s true, of course, but by zig-zagging his way into our current situation, I think Obama has left himself open to that sort of charge. What is it about the “current situation” that it requires ‘that sort of’ (gossippy) ‘charge’ to be leveled at Obama about the process of how he got one confrontational powerful opponent and his rogue nation that sits upon an arsenal of chemical weapons, to do what he wanted with out firing a shot? Who cares except the sideline’s never-satisfied critics whether Obama zagged when they think he should have zinged? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/572 "2013-09-25T02:40:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No. It said CW was used but not by whom. True, but the investigators were specifically barred from assigning blame, but provided evidence that certainly points towards Assad. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/09/16/the-u-n-chemical-weapons-report-is-pretty-damning-for-assad/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/09/16/the-u-n-chemical-weapons-report-is-pretty-damning-for-assad/) > [@](#): > > The United Nations has released a report on its formal investigation into the use of chemical weapons in the Syrian city of Damascus. The report appears to strongly confirm that chemical weapons, including notoriously deadly sarin gas, were used against civilians in the Damascus suburb of Ghouta on Aug. 21. The investigation found that a disturbing 85 percent of blood samples and 91 percent of urine samples taken in the area tested positive for sarin. > While the investigation was barred from assigning blame, a number of details in the report seem to strongly suggest that the government of Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad was likely responsible. Here are a few: > > 1. Chemical weapons were delivered with munitions not used by rebels. > The report concluded that whoever blanketed the Damascus neighborhood in chemical weapons did it with a specific kind of artillery shell designed for delivering chemical weapons. (Isn’t technology grand?) The Syrian government is known to possess these shells. Syria-watchers say there is no evidence that rebels have ever used these munitions or even have access to the technology needed to launch them. > 2. The sarin was fired from a regime-controlled area. > > The report concludes that the shells came from the northwest of the targeted neighborhood. That area was and is controlled by Syrian regime forces and is awfully close to a Syrian military base. If the shells had been fired by Syrian rebels, they likely would have come from the rebel-held southeast. Human Rights Watch, which reached a similar conclusion, put together this map indicating where the shells came from: > > A map of the Damascus neighborhood shelled with chemical weapons. (Human Rights Watch) > > 1. Chemical analysis suggests sarin likely came from controlled supply. > The U.N. investigators analyzed 30 samples, which they found contained not just sarin but also “relevant chemicals, such as stabilizers.” That suggests that the chemical weapons were taken from a controlled storage environment, where they could have been processed for use by troops trained in their use. This would seem to downplay the possibility that the chemical weapons were, as some speculated, fired by rebels who had stolen them from government stockpiles. > 2. Cyrillic characters on the sides of the shells > The Russian lettering on the artillery rounds strongly suggests they were Russian-manufactured. Russia is a major supplier of arms to the Syrian government, of course, but more to the point they are not a direct or indirect supplier of arms to the rebels. Rebels have typically been supplied with arms purchased from, most famously, Croatian manufacturers. The Croatian language uses a form of Latin rather than Cyrillic lettering. > 3. The UN Secretary General’s comments on the report > This is perhaps the most circumstantial case at all, but it’s difficult to ignore the apparent subtext in Secretary General Ban Ki-moon’s news conference discussing the report. While he made it clear that the investigation was not charged with determining responsibility, and that he would not name a likely culprit, he acknowledged that “we all have our thoughts on this.” He certainly seemed to. > Ban repeatedly stressed that “there must be accountability” and “no impunity” for the use of chemical weapons, which he said constituted a “war crime.” He added that the “perpetrators … will have to be brought to justice” and suggested referring them to the International Criminal Court. While it’s possible that Ban meant for these comments to apply to rebel or regime perpetrators, his language and policy proscriptions would apply far more suitably to senior Syrian government officials than to informal rebel groups. It’s worth noting that Juan Cole who’s probably the Left’s most popular Middle East scholar and hardly a fan of either the American empire or intervention has argued it’s “preposterous” that Assad forces weren’t responsible. Nor would it be surprised to anyone familiar with the infamous “Hama rules”. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/573 "2013-09-25T02:45:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > We do know that Khadaffi in Libya “voluntarily” said he’d give up all WMDs, but CWs were found hidden there after he was overthrown. I don’t think that is a particularly difficult thing for a dictator to do if he is so inclined. Well that just can’t be John. We had his word on it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/574 "2013-09-25T02:52:35Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > True, but the investigators were specifically barred from assigning blame, but provided evidence that certainly points towards Assad. OK, but I was simply answering your question, and the answer is “no”. And yes, there is lots of evidence pointing to Assad and very little pointing to the rebels. Still, the UN investigators said all along that they would not be assigning blame. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/575 "2013-09-25T03:00:59Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > True, but the investigators were specifically barred from assigning blame, but provided evidence that certainly points towards Assad. huh, wonder how that came about. It’s as if there was an agreement within the UN not to do anything to Assad regardless of what transpires. what’s interesting is we have a smoking gun but we don’t have evidence Assad authorized the pulling of the trigger. [URL=“[http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/aug/30/troops-led-assads-brother-likely-blame-chemical-we/?page=all](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/aug/30/troops-led-assads-brother-likely-blame-chemical-we/?page=all)”] His brother however, is a different story. \*Maher al-Assad, the president’s younger brother, commands the regime’s Republican Guard, the Syrian Army’s 4th Armored Division and special forces, which are tasked with protecting the regime. \* ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/576 "2013-09-25T03:11:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, but I was simply answering your question, and the answer is “no”. > > And yes, there is lots of evidence pointing to Assad and very little pointing to the rebels. Still, the UN investigators said all along that they would not be assigning blame. I appreciate that, and thanks for answering my question. I didn’t mean to come across as being obnoxious. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/577 "2013-09-25T03:45:14Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I appreciate that, and thanks for answering my question. I didn’t mean to come across as being obnoxious. No worries. I appreciate the response. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/578 "2013-09-25T12:11:46Z")
From Ibn’s most informative Post #572. > [@](#): > > 1. Cyrillic characters on the sides of the shells > The Russian lettering on the artillery rounds strongly suggests they were Russian-manufactured. Russia is a major supplier of arms to the Syrian government, of course, but more to the point they are not a direct or indirect supplier of arms to the rebels. Rebels have typically been supplied with arms purchased from, most famously, Croatian manufacturers. The Croatian language uses a form of Latin rather than Cyrillic lettering. . I’m quite sure Russian Orthodox Devotee Putin has no malign intent toward Syrian babies, but when Russian made shells were used to gas innocent babies kids and their mothers to death in violation of international norms it is clear the Assad’s regime were not at all concerned with gassing some babies to death. This observation makes it incredulous to flirt with the politically charged right wing push on the narrative that Putin has bested Obama in a Syria showdown this past month. That narrative is absurd because Putin is tied to the act of evil and needs a way out of that embarrassment. If only America’s right wingers could give up the goal of destroying Obama’s presidency no natter what, Putin would be seen in the weak position he is in on the global scene. Putin had the moral position and upper hand when he liberated South Ossetia and Abkhazia from Georgia, and when he opposed the US invasion of Iraq, but he has none of that here. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/579 "2013-09-25T12:41:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well that just can’t be John. We had his word on it. The ‘discovered’ Mustard Gas shells were not declared but they were found at the same facility where other declared materials were to be destroyed. Libya destroyed nearly half its chemical weapons since 2004 until the destruction facility broke down just before the revolution broke out in 2011. The headline here is horrible but the fact that it was not really a secret stash being hidden somewhere is in the report. > [@](#): > > “At the request of the Libyan authorities the inspectors examined munitions, mainly artillery shells, which they determined are chemical munitions and hence declarable,” the OPCW said. > > The shells were currently stocked at the Ruwagha depot in southeastern Libya, along with quantities of sulphur mustard and other chemicals that had been declared by the Gaddafi government but not yet destroyed, it said. > > The Gaddafi regime joined the OPCW, based in The Hague, in 2004 but had only destroyed some 45 per cent of its declared stocks of chemical weapons before the destruction facility malfunctioned in February 2011, just as the ultimately successful rebellion broke out. > > [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/9027836/Libya-Muammar-Gaddafis-secret-stash-of-chemical-weapons-found.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/9027836/Libya-Muammar-Gaddafis-secret-stash-of-chemical-weapons-found.html) ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417/580 "2013-09-25T13:38:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well that just can’t be John. We had his word on it. See previous post about Gadhaffi’s so called secret stash but also I have already pointed out that Saddam Hussein’s word prior to the invasion was that he was disarmed and Bush and Blair were lying. Saddam’s word in 2003 turned out to be good. So I don’t see the point you and others are making that this Syria deal is all a ruse so not worth much. The other two dictators who had chemical weapons got rid of them as they said. Their word was good. Bush and Blair’s word sucked. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-defend-the-admin-syria-drive/668417.md?page=30)