Can anyone explain the "Quantum Consciousness" model? or its implications?

Physicists (or those with strong physics backgrounds) have often gotten into the biology game with wonderful results, e.g. Francis Crick, Linus Pauling, George Gamow. Before the nature of the gene had been worked out, though, many physicists jumped onto the bio bandwagon because, without falling inwittingly into full-blown vitalism, they expected to discover “new physics” associated with Life. What they found is live pretty much boils down to hydrogen bonds and complexity, neither of which is all that interesting from a theoretical standpoint. Hydrogen bonds are very well described. Complexity is an ever-evolving field, but the foundations are firm, and while quantum weirdness does have its place in it, many of the classical consequences of chaos theory are, if anything, mitigated somewhat by quantum phenomena; they tend to smear things out and make the basic unit of a complex interaction, a collision, softer than what would be expected of the interactions of infinitessimal, hard objects.

The weirdest consequences of quantum theory, which have been proven to exist, are entanglement and non-locality. I am struck, though, whenever I read about experiments to probe these phenomena, both by the astounding precision of the measurements being made, and by the extraordinarily well-controlled conditions that are necessary to tease out quantum weirdness from the decoherent background. Everything to do with quantum computing seems to rely, ideally, on supercold vacuums. The human brain is anything but. Brains are made of atoms and molecules, which do exist in quantum superpositions, and do contain particles that may be in entagled states with other particles. But these weird quantum states would probably last for picoseconds or less in the hot, dense environment of the brain. Particles are flying about furiously in there, interacting at a stupendous rate. It is well known that interactions destroy quantum coherence and break superpositions (an interaction is equivalent to an observation, a la the Copenhegan Interpretation).

The speed of impulses in the human nervous system is about 200 m/s. So the fastest a signal could travel from your foot to your brain, assuming you are two meters tall, is about about 10 milliseconds. The restoration of neuron action potentials can also be measured in milliseconds. That’s two orders of magnitude, at the very least, greater than what one could expect the abosolute longest conherent state to last in a brain. So, when it takes signals so long to go anywhere, and it takes neurons so long to refire, I just can’t see how the non-local/FTL and massively parallel consequences of the weird interactions of entagled particles could be of any importance to human cognitive processes. The brain is amazingly complex, but as far as I can tell, it’s a classical machine. One shouldn’t evoke quantum weirdness until they have come fully to grips with the daunting complexity of the brain, and found classical explanations to be lacking, beyond all reasonable doubt.

We’re a long way off from that. Penrose, beyond ignoring some basic physical limitations of the intracranial environment, is really jumping the gun, if you ask me.

Physicists (or those with strong physics backgrounds) have often gotten into the biology game with wonderful results, e.g. Francis Crick, Linus Pauling, George Gamow. Before the nature of the gene had been worked out, though, many physicists jumped onto the bio bandwagon because, without falling inwittingly into full-blown vitalism, they expected to discover “new physics” associated with Life. What they found is live pretty much boils down to hydrogen bonds and complexity, neither of which is all that interesting from a theoretical standpoint. Hydrogen bonds are very well described. Complexity is an ever-evolving field, but the foundations are firm, and while quantum weirdness does have its place in it, many of the classical consequences of chaos theory are, if anything, mitigated somewhat by quantum phenomena; they tend to smear things out and make the basic unit of a complex interaction, a collision, softer than what would be expected of the interactions of infinitessimal, hard objects.

The weirdest consequences of quantum theory, which have been proven to exist, are entanglement and non-locality. I am struck, though, whenever I read about experiments to probe these phenomena, both by the astounding precision of the measurements being made, and by the extraordinarily well-controlled conditions that are necessary to tease out quantum weirdness from the decoherent background. Everything to do with quantum computing seems to rely, ideally, on supercold vacuums. The human brain is anything but. Brains are made of atoms and molecules, which do exist in quantum superpositions, and do contain particles that may be in entagled states with other particles. But these weird quantum states would probably last for picoseconds or less in the hot, dense environment of the brain. Particles are flying about furiously in there, interacting at a stupendous rate. It is well known that interactions destroy quantum coherence and break superpositions (an interaction is equivalent to an observation, a la the Copenhegan Interpretation).

The speed of impulses in the human nervous system is about 200 m/s. So the fastest a signal could travel from your foot to your brain, assuming you are two meters tall, is about about 10 milliseconds. The restoration of neuron action potentials can also be measured in milliseconds. That’s two orders of magnitude, at the very least, greater than what one could expect the abosolute longest conherent state to last in a brain. So, when it takes signals so long to go anywhere, and it takes neurons so long to refire, I just can’t see how the non-local/FTL and massively parallel consequences of the weird interactions of entagled particles could be of any importance to human cognitive processes. The brain is amazingly complex, but as far as I can tell, it’s a classical machine. One shouldn’t evoke quantum weirdness until they have come fully to grips with the daunting complexity of the brain, and found classical explanations to be lacking, beyond all reasonable doubt.

We’re a long way off from that. Penrose, beyond ignoring some basic physical limitations of the intracranial environment, is really jumping the gun, if you ask me.

Stealing from an above post, Penrose is quoted to have said:

I don’t know the validity of that statement as he doesn’t provide such calculations. It might be hidden somewhere among his lectures but I haven’t read all of them yet.

Nevertheless, you say that the brain according to current research, is capable of operating at 2 levels of magnitude above the longest state of coherence. To me, that seems to be more in favor of quantum interactions in the brain than anything else. Why? As you said, the brain is an amazingly complex place, just as the body is. Everything works together with precision and purpose. So, if quantum interactions were the basis for consciousness, I have no doubt mechanisms would’ve evolved to support coherence. Theres still plenty about cellular and molecular biology thats unknown. Its not exactly easy to look into a neuron and view every intricate structure. What appears in textbooks and diagrams today can only be a fraction of what is really there.

Why must be attempt to explain everything classically before moving on to more complex realms? Classical explanations as far as I understand it and as you stated earlier have reasoned the brain to be a complex computer. We can sit around all day waiting for a classical explanation to pop up. Theres not reason not to explore other options.

Theres an anecdotal point I’d like to make about the speed at which the brain operates. It seems that normal thought is extremely slow, verging on the magnitude of milliseconds or seconds. This would practically make sense as one second is a sufficient amount of time to have any one thought. Thats probably one of the reasons the system of time developed as it did. But, as we’ve all heard countless times, the brain supposedly has a far greater potential in terms of speed of thought. Under the influence of psilocin, one thinks at a tremendous speed, making external time slow down in relation to your thought. Compared to the speed of normal thought, this superspeed can be many magnitudes greater. I don’t think theres any research to validate these points since psilocin is illegal.

First of all, nice post.

I suspect the reason people are now flocking to the “quantum model” of consciousness is because

1)they want to preserve “free will”.
2)they abhor the notion that fundamentally humans are just a highly complex but ultimately composed of “plain matter”. They like to invoke the fanciest plausible-sounding theory, so that humans have a “special meaning” in the universe. Reduction is their enemy.

Not really. The brain is an imperfect organ that manages to create an useful predictive sensorimotor image. It fails in a lot of respects. I just got this book today from the library.

As for superspeed, LSD is even stronger in those terms :slight_smile:
But your cognition isn’t functioning in the same manner as when you’re sober, so it’s hard to compare.

It may not be perfect, but its pretty damn good. I don’t know of any other similar entity that can do the things the brain can and with the same precision and accuracy. And whatever the brain actually manages to do, (ie. create an useful predictive sensorimotor image) it does an excellent job of it for our everyday purposes.

Even better. :slight_smile:

How isn’t your cognition functioning in the same manner as when you’re sober? Its the same neurons, sending the same messages, yet they (seem to) do it much faster (and maybe in an illogical manner :p). The limits that normally exist are removed by the introduced chemicals. Its still your brain and its still you regardless of what chemicals are interacting with it/you, foreign or not. Of course any soul person is bound to refute that statement.

Come to think of it, having a species of superfast thinking and therefore superfast acting creatures would be the next evolutionary step.

Humans having no instincts is absolutely a false statement. We are born with a sucking response, a startle reaction to being held too loosely/fear and many more. They are completely about self at first and only become integrated with outside influence gradually. I would have to agree on the maternal instinct, though. On further reflection, this is learned behavior. Electrical stimuli tests on the brain would indicate that there are many aspects of who we are that are “built in”.

A sucking response is a reflex, as is the startle reaction.

There is a distinct difference between the two.

A definiton of instincts by behavior scientists:

“An inherited, species-specific stereotyped pattern of pre-programmed behavior that involves a relatively complex pattern of response; generally characterized by less flexibility in adaptability to changes in an environment but greater assurance that a complex pattern of behavior will occur as it is pre-programmed to occur, without variation.”

Notice the “without variation” part. It is basically “a complex behavior, or set of behaviors, pre-wired into an organism by genetic endowment. All members of the species (or sub-members, like gender) have the instinct the same way.” (above in quotes attributed to my Psychology Professor Mathew Westra)

Reflexes are just automatic reactions to outside stimulus.

There are no human instincts. I am willing to open another thread and defend my position if you desire, don’t want to hijack this interesting thread too much, but I will debate any activities or behaviors you think as an instinct, and point out why they are not. :wink:

(think of a Robins nest. Every nest is identical, and they do not have to be taught how to make the nest. If a Robin is raised by swallows, they will still make a robins nest, even if they have NEVER even seen another nest like it- there is nothing humans do that is like this, and the robins hard-wired architecure (sp?) is what an instict is)

I define instinct as a hot-fudge sundae. Using my definition, prove that instinct is not a hot-fudge sundae. I am willing to defend my position if you desire.

Okay. I still don’t agree, but am okay with being proved wrong, if I am. I think our instincts are there, but blurred and weakened by heavy socialization and I’m wondering what defines a universal response as a reflex, to you, rather than as instinct? But you’re right, well save it for another thread then.:slight_smile:

I won’t refute it. Same person, same neural structure, same personality. Same free will too but that’s another matter. :wink:

blowero: speaking as an impartial outsider to the human instinct debate, I have never heard Epimetheus’s ideas before but am willing to consider them without resorting to HFS’s, FFH’s, IPU’s, or any other intentionally off the wall theories (IOTWT’s).

(A) I don’t think you’re impartial, and (B) I think you completely missed my point.

Blowero, the defintions are accurate, I am not changing them in anyway. Grow up.

Here

Epimetheus, I don’t think disagreeing with you makes me immature in any way, as you have implied. Humans have many innate drives; you have simply defined the word “instinct” out of existence. Don’t have a freaking tantrum about it, OK?

How would you know? It’s all relative. What if the brain, under certain conditions, could be much more efficient, like have picture-perfect memory of ALL significant events from day 1. What if it could do calculations faster than a computer? Such a person would think the regular human brain to be a poor substitute. The problem wih such self-reverent statements is there’s no actual basis for comparision. All comparisions are superficial based on YOUR observations and communications. Your brain and identity is the ONLY thing “you” know.

If it was, I could trip at will. The primary difference between sobreity and LSD intoxication isn’t the “speed of thought”.

Actually, LSD just acts as a catalyst. When you’re tripping, there isn’t any LSD left in your brain. Depending on the dosage, there might not be a “you” left. At high doses, you can suffer from “ego death” where “you” don’t remain during the peak of the trip.

I concede that the brain is indeed imperfect and can be improved. However, this discussion went off on a tangent. The original point I was making was that if necessary, the brain is just as likely as not to have evolved the means necessary, no matter how beyond human understanding they are, to fulfill a given purpose. Such is the beauty of brute probability and millions of years of tweaking.

Actually, this is a very interesting effect because you’re effectively destroying the presence of an observer. What happens with high doses of hard(er) drugs is severe short term memory loss. You literally can’t remember what you were thinking a moment ago or even a fact as simple as that you’re holding something in your hand. You’re still you for that one moment but once the moment passes, its in the past and since you can’t remember the past, the only you that you have is the present, which is just as ephemeral. A person on a high dose trip, if they aren’t prepared, can then have a traumatic experience through all this confusion and disorder. This extreme despair and anxiety is continuously arrived at with each passing moment until the memory effects wear off and all you’re left with is wondering what just happened. And based on the despair you feel and the lack of memory as to what happened, one can arrive at “ego death” as you said. During a sober state, the same process remains (ie. passage of self from moment to moment) but you’re able to remember previous moments, so you have preconceived characteristics of you based on the composition of previous memories and the current moment.

Based on the above, I think the fundamental self or consciousness is just a self-aware circuit without any other characteristics. All other characteristics are products of environment, the random initiation of your brain at the fetal stage, or genes. No theory still explains how something can be self-aware.

I won’t pretend to know how exactly LSD affects cerebral chemistry since really thats one of the fundamental questions being asked. But I can assume that LSD, just as other chemicals, makes use of the mechanisms already present. LSD surely doesn’t cause the brain to grow new acidophilic tissue that then transmits the effects of a trip. It causes a chain of chemical reactions that leads to the perception of noted effects.
Didn’t mean to misquote you. :slight_smile:

BTW, is it possible to edit posts?

Not sure what you mean by this. Clarify.

Indeed, the existence of a self is predicated on working memory (short-term). There are theories of self that I’ve read that sound pretty solid (I’m still reading the second book)

What acid does is act as a partial agonist at the sertonergic receptors in the Raphe nuclei and locus coerulus. They are responsible for preventing sensory overload, among a host of other functions.

But there is a difference between being capable of reciting your surroundings and actually being conscious of them. Unless these theories explain consciousness, they are flawed.

The authors(eminent neuroscientists) of both those books don’t think so. They make mention of it in their preface as well. You’re also confusing that working memory is limited to explicit declarative memory.