# Can anyone explain the Scouring of the Shire? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 4, 2004, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-explain-the-scouring-of-the-shire/267480 "2004-10-04T16:53:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Humble\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/47e85d/32.png) [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-explain-the-scouring-of-the-shire/267480/21 "2004-10-05T15:41:53Z")
I agree that LOTR is not a WWII allegory–not that I would always trust an author on his own work. The Hobbit was published in 1937 and LOTR was conceived and written post-Hobbit publication. I think the confusion may arise in part from the fact that WWI was indeed JRRT’s war, and that the other Eldar Days stories were indeed in existence in the 20s (so, Middle Earth already existed, but LOTR did not). LOTR was begun before WWII and work on it continued through the war and after too–it’s just that date in the 20s that is not correct. ---
**Author:** ![Ol\_Gaffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Ol\_Gaffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ol_Gaffer)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-explain-the-scouring-of-the-shire/267480/22 "2004-10-05T16:25:15Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > I’m quoting (paraphrasing, actually), Tolkien’s forward to LOTR, where he describes his detestation of “allegory in any form”, and notes that, if LOTR had been a WWII allegory, Sauron would have been enslaved, not overthrown, Saruman would have created a second Ring, etc. He also claims that the basic story outline was complete long before WWII. > > Does someone have a copy of the book handy and can give us chapter and verse? It is from the Foreward to the Revised Edition, pgs. 6-7. It states, in part: > [@JRRT](#): > > The prime motive [for writing LOTR] was the desire of a tale-teller to try his hand at a really long story that would hold the attention of readers, amuse them, delight them, and at times maybe excite them or deeply move them…As for the inner meaning or ‘message’, it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither allegorical nor topical…The crucial chapter, ‘The Shadow of the Past’, is one of the oldest parts of the tale. It was written long before the foreshadow of 1939 had yet become a threat of inevitable disaster, and from that point the story would have developed along essentially the same lines, if that disaster had been averted…Other arrangements could be devised according to the tastes or views of those who like allegory or topical reference. But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence…I think that many confuse ‘applicability’ with ‘allegory’; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author. It is interesting that about half of the Foreward is spent addressing this issue. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-explain-the-scouring-of-the-shire/267480/23 "2004-10-05T16:57:08Z")
OK, so my paraphrase was more or less accurate. Tolkien claims that the oldest part of LOTR, which in his view predetermined the rest, was written long before WWII. Q.E.D. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-explain-the-scouring-of-the-shire/267480/24 "2004-10-05T17:04:10Z")
> [@Humble Servant](#): > > That was very wrong, wasn’t it? Like Bingo and Trotter So wonderfully wrong! > [@](#): > > I’m almost done with HOMES–my eyes twitch over stuff like Gilrain v. Gilraen. Yeah, you gotta pan thru a lot of common rocks and dirt to get to the gold nuggest. > [@](#): > > What do y’all think of it as an editorial project I’ve have shot myself rather than try to do it all. Of course, if it was my only work, and it would be my meal ticket forever and ever, then I might have tried to do it. Then shot myself. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-explain-the-scouring-of-the-shire/267480/25 "2004-10-05T18:05:03Z")
Quoth the good Professor: > [@](#): > > But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence… This coming from the man who wrote “Leaf by Niggle”. But that’s OK, since it’s not an allegory, it’s a fairy tale. Even though it comes right after an essay where he gives a definition of “fairy tale” which is completely and utterly inconsistent with “Niggle”. Did Tolkien ever comment on this apparent inconsistency? ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-explain-the-scouring-of-the-shire/267480/26 "2004-10-05T20:27:29Z")
link to a semi-relevant article I think all who posted here would enjoy: [http://www.insidedenver.com/drmn/news\_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN\_86\_3229889,00.html](http://www.insidedenver.com/drmn/news_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_86_3229889,00.html) In this editorial the writer decries those who would use LOTR as an allegory for the “War on Terror” ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-explain-the-scouring-of-the-shire/267480/27 "2004-10-06T10:33:52Z")
I understand Jackson’s choice to leave “The Scouring” out of an already long movie. However, he seemed to go out of his way to imply that the other hobbits of the shire were blissfully ignorant of the troubles their world had experienced in the previous year or two. Not only weren’t the four travellers welcomed back as heroes, but the Shire seemed completely unaware that they had even gone away. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-explain-the-scouring-of-the-shire/267480/28 "2004-10-14T13:39:51Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth the good Professor:This coming from the man who wrote “Leaf by Niggle”. But that’s OK, since it’s not an allegory, it’s a fairy tale. Even though it comes right after an essay where he gives a definition of “fairy tale” which is completely and utterly inconsistent with “Niggle”. Did Tolkien ever comment on this apparent inconsistency? Well, first, remember that Mark Twain insisted “Huckleberry Finn” had no plot and no moral, and said anyone who looked for them should be shot. Anybody really believe “Huckleberry Finn” had no plot or moral? I understand Twain’s point, however, and I think it’s one Tolkien would have agreed with: if you START with a moral and build a story around it, you’re likely to end up with something dull, preachy and OBVIOUS. And even little kids learn early on to recognize stories like that. A bright little kid who hears an earnest morality tale or a story with a blatant metaphor is likely to groan to himself, “This is another of those stories that’s supposed to teach me a lesson, isn’t it? Sigh… I HATE those.” That’s not to say a good story can’t or shouldn’t teach us something valuable, only to say that the STORY has to come first, before any lesson the author hopes to impart. Indeed, any GOOD story WILL teach us something of life, even if that wasn’t the storyteller’s primary intent. For example, Homer wasn’t a Christian, but a Christian is liable to gain more valuable insights from reading Homer’s “Odyssey” than from a blatant Christian fable like “Pilgrim’s Progress.” And I think Tolkien often found that he learned more about his own Catholic faith by reading Viking pagan legends than by reading the usual Catholic propaganda for kiddies. That’s one reason he was less than impressed by his colleague C.S. Lewis’ fantasy stories- it was far too OBVIOUS, in Tolkien’s view, that Aslan was Jesus. And if 10 year old Tolkien (or 10 year old Samuel Clemens) had read “The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe”, he’d have recognized it instantly as an allegory, a story with a Big Moral, and his eyes would have glazed over. But even though Tolkien, like Twain, resisted obvious metaphors, it would be foolish to think they weren’t men of their times, and that their stories didn’t reflect what was really happening in the real worlds and times they lived in. No, the Scouring of the Shire was not a mere metaphor for postwar England, but I still believe that the dismal realities of postwar England influenced Tolkien’s view of the SHire under Saruman’s rule. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-explain-the-scouring-of-the-shire/267480/29 "2004-10-14T13:49:21Z")
Astorian - What an interesting post. Thank you for it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-explain-the-scouring-of-the-shire/267480.md?page=1)