# Can anyone identify this horseless carriage **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 1, 2012, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-identify-this-horseless-carriage/636351 "2012-10-01T02:21:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-identify-this-horseless-carriage/636351/1 "2012-10-01T02:21:15Z")
Photo taken around 1902 in north central Pennsylvania. Can anyone identify the make of the [automobile](http://i.imgur.com/tIlKO.jpg)? ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-identify-this-horseless-carriage/636351/2 "2012-10-01T03:48:52Z")
The Hannibal Twin 8? šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-identify-this-horseless-carriage/636351/3 "2012-10-01T04:37:39Z")
I would start [here](http://earlyamericanautomobiles.com/1902.htm) and look around. How definite are you on the year? ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-identify-this-horseless-carriage/636351/4 "2012-10-01T14:56:08Z")
> [@panamajack](#): > > I would start [here](http://earlyamericanautomobiles.com/1902.htm) and look around. How definite are you on the year? Great site, thanks! Pretty solid on year photo was taken, no idea for car. The owners name was Bert Andress, the local telegraph operator. With what seems like every blacksmith and bicycle mechanic making cars (or planes) in that era, I donā€™t expect this ID to come easily. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-identify-this-horseless-carriage/636351/5 "2012-10-01T16:51:34Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > Great site, thanks! Pretty solid on year photo was taken, no idea for car. The owners name was Bert Andress, the local telegraph operator. > > With what seems like every blacksmith and bicycle mechanic making cars (or planes) in that era, I donā€™t expect this ID to come easily. Not to mention that custom coach works were the norm for that era. Making identification by body style, seating, or silhouette very difficult. :eek: The drive train might help identify it. It seems to have a single central drive chain. Quite a few designs from that era that I have seen have dual outboard drive chains. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-identify-this-horseless-carriage/636351/6 "2012-10-01T17:07:42Z")
The fore to aft tubular tie bars and central drive chain seems to be pretty consistent with early Stanley Steamers. [Here](http://www.flickr.com/photos/railwayed/2325887148/) is an image of a 1901 model. A slight bit of info on that model is [here](http://www.stanleyregister.net/1901.html). Another Stanely of same era[here](http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints/cars/variouscars/27113/view/stanley_steamer/). ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-identify-this-horseless-carriage/636351/7 "2012-10-01T17:13:24Z")
> [@panamajack](#): > > I would start [here](http://earlyamericanautomobiles.com/1902.htm) and look around. It looks a lot like the 1901 Century Tourist Steamer on the 1901 page of that site. Itā€™s not identical (the OPā€™s pic has fenders, the Century Tourist Steamer on **panamajack** ā€™s site doesnā€™t, for example), but then there was a lot of customization back then. The general body shape is the same and there are even lamps hung in the same place on each, through the lamps are also of different styles. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-identify-this-horseless-carriage/636351/8 "2012-10-01T17:31:02Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > The fore to aft tubular tie bars and central drive chain seems to be pretty consistent with early Stanley Steamers. The suspension on the Century in my last post doesnā€™t match the OPā€™s pic. Looking at Stanley Steamers though I found the Model C Runabout, here: [http://kruseclassics.com/imgUL/carpics/RO122.JPG](http://kruseclassics.com/imgUL/carpics/RO122.JPG) The body isnā€™t quite the same, but at least it has the leaf springs on the front (which the Century doesnā€™t seem to have) and the lamp is not only in the same place, but itā€™s the same style of lamp as well. Iā€™m changing my answer to a Stanley Steamer. I donā€™t know if itā€™s a Model C with a slightly different body or if itā€™s a different model. Iā€™ll keep poking around a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-identify-this-horseless-carriage/636351/9 "2012-10-02T17:55:47Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > The suspension on the Century in my last post doesnā€™t match the OPā€™s pic. Looking at Stanley Steamers though I found the Model C Runabout, here: > [http://kruseclassics.com/imgUL/carpics/RO122.JPG](http://kruseclassics.com/imgUL/carpics/RO122.JPG) > > The body isnā€™t quite the same, but at least it has the leaf springs on the front (which the Century doesnā€™t seem to have) and the lamp is not only in the same place, but itā€™s the same style of lamp as well. > > Iā€™m changing my answer to a Stanley Steamer. I donā€™t know if itā€™s a Model C with a slightly different body or if itā€™s a different model. Iā€™ll keep poking around a bit. I agree that an early Stanley Steamer is a strong possibility. Couple things on the C that donā€™t match up: - If the date of the photo is accurate I think it is probably too early for a Model C. - I found another pic of a C [Model C pic](http://www.conceptcarz.com/view/photo/399182,11755/1903-Stanley-Steamer-Model-C_photo.aspx#photo) and it appears that the steam cylinder is below the body and directly coupled to the axle (no long drive chain). The steam cylinder under the body seems common with later Stanelyā€™s and lots of other designs. Early Stanelyā€™s like the Model A and maybe the B appear to not have the steam cylinder below the body. However I notice the Model A I linked previously has a side mounted steering tiller. ā˜¹ Looking more closely at **panamajackā€™s** link I notice several ā€œbrandsā€ that have similar design elements to the pictured machine. But only one that really has all the key mechanical elements. - chain drive - Longitudinal leaf springs front and back - Longitudinal tie bars connecting the axles - No steam cylinder below body - central steering tiller with a ā€œleadingā€ link - Side mounted ā€œparking brakeā€ with a short lever - Relative proximity to PA The one that ticks all those boxes is the [1902 Mobile Steam Runabout](http://earlyamericanautomobiles.com/images/autos4592.jpg) pictured about 3/4 of the way down the page that **panamajack** linked. According to the page Mobile was in business from 1899-1903 so that works with the suspected picture date. The car in the OPā€™s pic might well be a ā€œTouring Carā€ model from Mobile. I like a good mystery and love mechanical things. It has been fun trying to find a good match. **engineer\_comp\_geek** what do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-identify-this-horseless-carriage/636351/10 "2012-10-02T18:27:25Z")
Look what I found on ebay Australia. [1901 Mobile Steam car poster](http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1901-Mobile-Steam-Car-Photo-Poster?item=370575333136&ih=024&category=13559&cmd=ViewItem) [Full size image]([http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NjE2WDcyMA==/$(KGrHqF,!nUE63Tf4qzkBPC0()ozCg~~60\_3.JPG](http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NjE2WDcyMA==/$(KGrHqF,!nUE63Tf4qzkBPC0()ozCg~~60_3.JPG)) [Another image](http://www.virtualsteamcarmuseum.org/images/vscmimages/mobile_company_of_america/websized/postcards_and_ephemera/mobile_company_of_america_1901_peck_collection_photo.png) in case the ebay links go bad [Website](http://www.virtualsteamcarmuseum.org/makers/mobile_company_of_america.html) with lots of old pictures and info on the Mobile Car Company (super slow loading for me). Not an exact match (see notes below), but damn close. The body corners match, the mechanical layout (except steering linkage as noted) matches. Even the body trim around the rear seat opening and the ā€œovalā€ side panel details match. Canā€™t tell if there are louvers in the ovals in the OPā€™s pic. Maybe just not enough contrast in that old pic? If it isnā€™t a Mobile, I am thinking it must be a damn good knock off. - Details that donā€™t match - ebay pic vehicle has side mounted tiller - ebay pic vehicle does not have contraption on the rear deck as shown in OPā€™s pic. ---
**Author:** ![Rocketeer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocketeer/32/4437_2.png) [@Rocketeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocketeer)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-identify-this-horseless-carriage/636351/11 "2012-10-02T18:43:59Z")
Some of you guys are keying on the wrong stuff. Most cars back then had very similar bodies, built by the same coachbuilders in some cases (1904 Ford and Cadillac, for instance). So itā€™s not appropriate to look at things like lamps and body trim. What matters is the chassis, and its salient points: Central tiller, longitudinal tie bars between front and rear suspension, full elliptic front and rear springs, central drive chain. That said, the Mobile looks like a good match to me. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-identify-this-horseless-carriage/636351/12 "2012-10-02T19:38:25Z")
Mobile is the best match so far, but I see similarities with Toledo vehicles as well. Same suspension and bell location, but has a curved dash/footboard. Here are [1901](http://i.imgur.com/EqJS3.jpg) and [1903](http://i.imgur.com/ohfX1.jpg) models. The Toledo cars also have the rear mounted condensor (?) flue (?). The perforated side panels shown on the Mobile were common, probably for combustion air. From what I have read on the sites listed here, the body style would have been considered a ā€˜Surreyā€™, but the top is not present in my photo. It appears that Stanley, Mobile and Locomobile were rather entangled companies, who knows what variants they might have produced. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-identify-this-horseless-carriage/636351/13 "2012-10-02T20:50:48Z")
Ok, I think I have found it in Google Books at the bottom of page 95 in this [link](http://books.google.com/books?id=GqQyAQAAMAAJ&ots=jSjkXbu_p4&dq=editions%3AafqI98zgBc8C&pg=RA1-PA95#v=onepage&q&f=true). This is from a period trade journal, not from a restored vehicle as shown in the eBay photo. I am ready to conclude that it is a Mobile Heavy Surrey without top. Probably a 1902/1903 model. Matches right down to the tiller steering, condenser on the rear and the single valve below the rear seat. The lamps are even close. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-identify-this-horseless-carriage/636351/14 "2012-10-02T22:36:17Z")
I think you have it there. Looks like the mechanicals match, and even the coachwork details. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-identify-this-horseless-carriage/636351/15 "2012-10-02T22:52:04Z")
[Only $1400](http://www.virtualsteamcarmuseum.org/images/vscmimages/mobile_company_of_america/websized/advertisements_1901/mobile_company_of_america_1901_10_october_cosmopolitan_4_pages_4.png)šŸ˜ƒ 3rd set of 1902 ads from the top describes the ā€œHeavy Surreyā€. Image looks to be the same as the ā€œCosmopolitanā€ from the other ad. Guessing ā€œCosmopolitanā€ was a trim level or version of the Heavy Surrey? ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-identify-this-horseless-carriage/636351/16 "2012-10-02T23:02:26Z")
Time to put my dunce cap on. ā€œThe Cosmopolitanā€ at the top of the page that I took for a model designation was simply the header with the magazine title in which the ad appeared. Iā€™d never have guessed that _Cosmo_ has been around that long. Ignorance fought. šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-identify-this-horseless-carriage/636351/17 "2012-10-02T23:39:55Z")
$1400 seems like quite an expenditure for a telegraph operator (occupation of owner in 1900 census). ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-identify-this-horseless-carriage/636351/18 "2012-10-03T01:00:13Z")
Dang, now I want a 1900ish steam car. Think of the fun, in the summer, of taking your convertible out for a drive. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-identify-this-horseless-carriage/636351/19 "2012-10-04T01:31:22Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Time to put my dunce cap on. ā€œThe Cosmopolitanā€ at the top of the page that I took for a model designation was simply the header with the magazine title in which the ad appeared. Iā€™d never have guessed that _Cosmo_ has been around that long. Ignorance fought. šŸ˜‰ At the turn of the cenetury, the US automobile business seems to have been pretty dynamic - with many people hoping to make a killing in a new industry. The owner of Cosmopolitan magazine in 1899, John Brisben Walker, was the founder of the Mobile Corporation of America - after he bought out the Stanley brothers patents. Weeks later he had a falling out with his partner, who left to found Locomobile. Walker built quite a factory, designed by Stanford White, in Tarrytown. In 1903, he sold it to Maxwell and exited the car business. Around 1914, the plant ended up in Chevrolet, later GMā€™s hands and built Chevrolets until 1996. It is now a toxic waste cleanup site. Quite a legacy for a magazine guy who dabbled in automobiles. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-identify-this-horseless-carriage/636351/20 "2012-10-04T02:00:16Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > [Only $1400](http://www.virtualsteamcarmuseum.org/images/vscmimages/mobile_company_of_america/websized/advertisements_1901/mobile_company_of_america_1901_10_october_cosmopolitan_4_pages_4.png)šŸ˜ƒ You donā€™t see enough semicolons in advertising these days. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-identify-this-horseless-carriage/636351.md?page=2)