# Can Anyone Justify Blue Laws WITHOUT Invoking Religion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 13, 2004, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-blue-laws-without-invoking-religion/259678 "2004-08-13T12:47:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2005, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-blue-laws-without-invoking-religion/259678/41 "2005-06-19T04:12:04Z")
> [@bnorton](#): > > At one time in Texas almost all stores were required to be closed on Sunday. One of the reasons behind that was that small mom-and-pop types stores couldn’t stay open 7 days a week without bringing in extra help, and it would be tough to find someone to work only one day out of the week. Larger stores already had the employees in place, therefore, the reasoning went, being open on Sundays was unfair to small business. > > That’s not quite the same thing as the question in the OP, still… And what abput the nice observant Jewish couple who have to stay closed 2 days a week(Sat & Sun) rather 1? If you want to force all stores to close one day a week to give mom & pop stores a day off then at least let them pick which day they close. New York has started doing this with their liquor stores. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-blue-laws-without-invoking-religion/259678/42 "2005-06-20T04:27:04Z")
For anyone who wishes to read Earl Warren’s lengthy dissertation on this issue, here is the link to [McGowan v. Maryland](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&court=US&case=/us/366/420.html). The first sentence is almost comical: > [@](#): > > Appellants, employees of a large department store on a highway in Anne Arundel County, Md., were convicted and fined in a Maryland State Court for selling on Sunday a loose-leaf binder, a can of floor wax, a stapler, staples and a toy, in violation of Md. Ann. Code, Art. 27, 521, which generally prohibits the sale on Sunday of all merchandise except the retail sale of tobacco products, confectioneries, milk, bread, fruit, gasoline, oils, greases, drugs, medicines, newspapers and periodicals. The key finding with respect to the Establishment Clause: > [@](#): > > Throughout this century and longer, both the federal and state governments have oriented their activities very largely toward improvement of the health, safety, recreation and general well-being of our citizens. Numerous laws affecting public health, safety factors in industry, laws affecting hours and conditions of labor of women and children, week-end diversion at parks and beaches, and cultural activities of various kinds, now point the way toward the good life for all. Sunday Closing Laws, like those before us, have become part and parcel of this great governmental concern wholly apart from their original purposes or connotations. The present purpose and effect of most of them is to provide a uniform day of rest for all citizens; the fact that this day is Sunday, a day of particular significance for the dominant Christian sects, does not bar the State from achieving its secular goals. To say that the States cannot prescribe Sunday as a day of rest for these purposes solely because centuries ago such laws had their genesis in religion would give a constitutional interpretation of hostility to the public welfare rather than one of mere separation of church and State. ---
**Author:** ![robz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac8455/32.png) [@robz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robz)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-blue-laws-without-invoking-religion/259678/43 "2005-06-20T13:41:44Z")
Small town in Maine 15 or so years ago. Maine had a law that stores over so much square feet could not open on Sundays. So the big grocery stores, Walmarts etc could not open on Sunday. We lived a short walk from a small grocery/meats/sandwich shop which was open on Sundays. They did a lot of business on Sundays. After the law was changed, the giant, big box food store (which had put the old IGA out of business a few years earlier) opened Sundays. The small grocery went out of business a few months later. One of the employees of the small local owned place said that Sunday sales kept them in business and they lost that to the big store. So one justification for that law could of been it kept small, local owned businesses vs big non localy owned box stores. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-blue-laws-without-invoking-religion/259678/44 "2005-06-20T14:03:27Z")
> [@Barbarian](#): > > Because the countries we live in have a tradition of separating Church and State. Those of us who have no desire to live in a theocracy object to having religious laws imposed on us, especially when these laws do nothing but restrict our own freedom to choose. > > If you wish to voluntarily dedicate yourself to observing the Sabbath by not purchasing alcohol on any given day, go ahead. It’s no skin off my nose. But you have no right to restrict my activities, which involve no one but myself, simply becase your interpretation of your god’s rules says so. There are millions of mall workers out there that would love not to work on Sunday. I remember when the only thing open on Sunday were the movies. Nothing wrong with having a day of rest whether you are religious or not. Go fishing, camping, or just be with the family and get to know them. Them that want their booze on Sunday can buy it on Saturday. The unwillingness not to restrict your activities is unfair. We all have to restrict our activities for others, Think about it. Our Constitution does not guarantee us freedom from all restrictions. This is just another thread to bash religion, the board is full of them. But without religion this country wouldn’t exist. Remember the pilgrims came here for religious freedom. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-blue-laws-without-invoking-religion/259678/45 "2005-06-20T17:52:46Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > There are millions of mall workers out there that would love not to work on Sunday. I remember when the only thing open on Sunday were the movies. Nothing wrong with having a day of rest whether you are religious or not. Go fishing, camping, or just be with the family and get to know them. > > Them that want their booze on Sunday can buy it on Saturday. > > The unwillingness not to restrict your activities is unfair. We all have to restrict our activities for others, Think about it. Our Constitution does not guarantee us freedom from all restrictions. > > This is just another thread to bash religion, the board is full of them. > But without religion this country wouldn’t exist. Remember the pilgrims came here for religious freedom. But why does that day of rest have to be Sunday _for everybody_? If the government passed a law saying all businesses needed to close at least one day a week, but they could choose which day that’s fine. No business owner would be disadvantaged by their religion. A Jewish wine merchant could close on Saturdays, a Muslim bookseller could close on Fridays, and a Christian grocer could close on Sundays. An Atheist could close any day of the week and a corporate big box store could close whichever day they get the least sales. But forcing all retailers to close on Sunday and observe the Christian Sabbath is discriminatory and wrong. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-blue-laws-without-invoking-religion/259678/46 "2005-06-20T23:34:08Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Unless your religion requires you to purchase alcohol on a Sunday, I don’t see your point. Separation of Church and State means that the federal government cannot endorse one particular religion and force us to follow that religion’s beliefs. (IANAL, so maybe someone better versed in Constitutional Law can refute this.) My religion forbids me to buy or sell \*anything \* on Saturday. If I want to buy it on the weekend (certainly in Summer, when it’s light out until after the stores close), Saturday’s my only option. Why should I have to choose between violating my own religious beliefs and not being able to take care of errands on the weekend, conveniently, like everyone else? I notice that the businesses in my neighborhood - businesses owned by Hindus and Muslims, who observe neither a Saturday nor a Sunday sabbath - do just fine by closing on Tuesdays and being open all weekend. > [@](#): > > This is just another thread to bash religion, the board is full of them. > But without religion this country wouldn’t exist. Remember the pilgrims came here for religious freedom. And just how is this thread bashing religion? My religious observance is in no way enhanced or enabled by prohibiting the sale of liquor (or any other product) on Sunday. In fact, Sunday closings make it more difficult to observe the tenets of my religion (which, I submit, is just as good, worthy, holy, and althogether OK as your religion). It’s safe to say that the pilgrims did not come here to found an all-purpose haven for members of oppressed religions the world over. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-blue-laws-without-invoking-religion/259678/47 "2005-06-21T00:33:46Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Them that want their booze on Sunday can buy it on Saturday. > > The unwillingness not to restrict your activities is unfair. We all have to restrict our activities for others, Think about it. Our Constitution does not guarantee us freedom from all restrictions. But would you feel equally ok with rules someone imposed on you that did not agree with your philosophy? > [@](#): > > This is just another thread to bash religion, the board is full of them. > But without religion this country wouldn’t exist. Remember the pilgrims came here for religious freedom. Is it possible the intent of the thread is not to bash religion but rather to bash the application of rules from one subset of the population across a larger subset of the population? ---
**Author:** ![Cornelius\_Tuggerson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Cornelius\_Tuggerson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cornelius_Tuggerson)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-blue-laws-without-invoking-religion/259678/48 "2005-06-22T19:30:44Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > But without religion this country wouldn’t exist. Remember the pilgrims came here for religious freedom. You are absolutely right. Without relgion this country would not exist, and in its place there would exist a much better fairer country. I agree with uncle Mao as far as the whole damn thing is concerned. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-blue-laws-without-invoking-religion/259678/49 "2005-06-23T06:30:58Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > The unwillingness not to restrict your activities is unfair. We all have to restrict our activities for others, Think about it. Our Constitution does not guarantee us freedom from all restrictions. This country is about liberty and freedom. Anything that limits freedom should be there for a good reason (like the freedom of others or reasonable safety constraints). We have Jews in this country, should you be forced to eat kosher if it made them more comfortable? Would eating halal be better? I’m a vegetarian, should I get to force you not to eat meat? If we restricted activities just to please a group, this would mean no alcohol, tobacco, skimpy clothing, firearms, Bibles, genetically modified foods, chiropractic treatments, homeopathy, SUVs, and pretty much everything else. Why should I be forced to observe your Sabbath? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-blue-laws-without-invoking-religion/259678/50 "2005-06-23T13:43:47Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > But why does that day of rest have to be Sunday _for everybody_? . Maybe not necessarily sunday, but having the same day for everybody has at least one advantage : everybody in the family (in particular spouses) will have the same day off, allowing for some family life. That’s the main argument given here to support the limitations on opening businesses on sunday, and it’s strongly backed by the unions, that, generally speaking, don’t feel very concerned about religious issues. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-blue-laws-without-invoking-religion/259678/51 "2005-06-23T14:10:26Z")
One non-religious argument given to me by a close relative: If all work and no play makes Dick a dull dude, then setting aside one day among several for enforced relaxation might be a good thing, and mandating the specific day makes it easier for society to cope. The theory is that people will be more productive in the long run if they aren’t worked to death. A rest day “recharges batteries” and makes it possible to get a fresh start every so often. Psychologically, not a bad idea. Although any one day of the week (or month, or whatever) could be chosen, in a largely-Christian society, Sunday is the most likely day to find favor (Seventh-Day Adventists and Jews be damned). Therefore, Sunday blue laws can be justified as promoting the general welfare. It’s a weak argument. And IMHO it violates too many other, stronger concepts such as personal choice. But that never stopped legislatures before. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-blue-laws-without-invoking-religion/259678/52 "2005-06-23T21:59:30Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Maybe not necessarily sunday, but having the same day for everybody has at least one advantage : everybody in the family (in particular spouses) will have the same day off, allowing for some family life. That’s the main argument given here to support the limitations on opening businesses on sunday, and it’s strongly backed by the unions, that, generally speaking, don’t feel very concerned about religious issues. But closing stores one day a week doesn’t give everybody in the family the same day off- those blue laws generally exempt amusement parks, baseball stadiums, restaurants, theatres etc. and they certainly don’t apply to hospitals and police departments. You could probably get as many spouses a day off in common by doing what one store my husband worked for did- giving everyone one weekend day off without closing the store. They filled in with part-timers who only worked evenings and weekends. Even though the blue laws applied to some of their locations, they didn’t require closing the store , just roping off some aisles. Because they were allowed to be open, and could sell nails on Sunday, but not a hammer (or something equally ridiculous- maybe it was paint and brushes) Which suggests to me that those laws ( like the ones that _only_ apply to liquor stores) really have nothing to do with giving employees the day off , but rather with how those who do have a day off on Sunday should spend it. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-blue-laws-without-invoking-religion/259678/53 "2005-06-24T03:48:35Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > You could probably get as many spouses a day off in common by doing what one store my husband worked for did- giving everyone one weekend day off without closing the store. I believe that a law was fairly recently passed in my area requiring employers to grant each employee one day off per week for religous observance, etc. Not surprisingly, we were then treated to the business community whining about how their employees actually expected to _use_ their days off. Seriously, we had people complaining that “so-and-so, I know he’s not really religous, but he demands this time off anyway.” ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-blue-laws-without-invoking-religion/259678/54 "2005-06-26T00:42:46Z")
I’ll be frank that I have not read the entire thread, but it occurs to me that _in the past_ one could identify a quasi-secular (at least Lemon-acceptable) ground for blue laws. I.e., it is important to public health that workers get at least one day off work on a regular basis. (Brandeis documented this legally at length in the early decades of the 20th century; the term “Brandeis brief” is the standard term for a legal case made in part by introducing the findings of medical, public health, sociology, and social work professionals as evidence supportive of the propriety under the police power of laws that, e.g., created the eight-hour-day, required employers to give days off, etc.) Now, if it is important that people be given time for rest and refreshment, and enabled to freely exercise their religion, and the vast majority of Americans were in fact members of a Christian church, as was in fact the case for the first 150-175 years of American history, then it would be logical to require that many if not all businesses remain closed on Sunday, the day of worship for the overwhelming majority of Christian churches. This does not justify their being maintained in today’s society, when a five-day work week, telecommuting, agnosticism and atheism, a wide range of faith traditions, are characteristic of America. But it does make the idea, if not a great one, at least justifiable, in the past. ---
**Author:** ![krgreene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f05b48/32.png) [@krgreene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/krgreene)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-blue-laws-without-invoking-religion/259678/55 "2005-06-26T23:36:42Z")
OK, the feelings of requiring a day off for everyone for the common good yadda yadda yadda is understandable. Even the fact that the day of the week being state mandated “so spouses get the same day off” is a little understandable. These reasons are still not valid concerning alcohol sales on Sunday. They aren’t even valid concerning non-food items being sold before 1:30 on Sunday (as in the great state of SC, or at least my county). ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2005, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-blue-laws-without-invoking-religion/259678/56 "2005-06-27T18:03:17Z")
Once again, the idiocy of Blue Laws bites me in the ass. For some reason which, of course, has nothing to do with religion because that would be unconstitutional, I couldn’t buy a six-pack this past Sunday morning. I rarely butt heads with this law, but whenever I do, I’m saddened that the constitution can be so easily pushed aside. Ah well, at least a Kentucky courtroom can’t post the 10 commandments; still, some judge can try to post it in his/her courtroom, s/he just needs a better argument. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-blue-laws-without-invoking-religion/259678.md?page=2)