# Can anyone justify the minimum-musician union requirement on B'way? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2003, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366 "2003-03-10T18:51:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/21 "2003-03-11T04:02:31Z")
> [@](#): > > I think you guys might have a good case for reducing the minimums, given the high costs of producing a show, but I think it’s naive to think that if the musician’s union lets them completely eliminate the minimums, that they aren’t going to get aced out completely. Then they should go. Sorry you are in the buggy whip business, but that isn’t my problem. Why should I have to subsidize your anachronistic profession? Throw the bums out says I. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/22 "2003-03-11T04:59:38Z")
Rhum: > [@](#): > > Then they should go. Sorry you are in the buggy whip business, but that isn’t my problem. Why should I have to subsidize your anachronistic profession? Throw the bums out says I. And the musicians have every right to make people aware of what they would be losing, and hopefully make them see that they really are necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Jervoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@Jervoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jervoise)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/23 "2003-03-11T05:09:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nightime \* > \*\*And the musicians have every right to make people aware of what they would be losing, and hopefully make them see that they really are necessary. \*\* Informing the public is one thing. Forcing theatres to run their businesses a certain way to save your own skin is another entirely. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/24 "2003-03-11T06:10:27Z")
I think the union that represents the musicians has a right to specify a minimum because it is standard way of doing business when you sell a product or a service. If I rent a car and use it for 15 minutes, I still have to pay the rate for an hour. If I meet with an attorney for 15 minutes, more than likely I will have to pay that attorney for an hour. When I subscribe to cable, I can’t simply select, say, 5 channels and pay a tenth of what it costs for 50 channels. Lastly, as much as I would like to go to the supermarket and get two slices of bread, I’m forced to buy a whole loaf to get them. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow_ > > Furthermore, why shouldn’t I be allowed to use recorded music or synthesized music? Yeah, yeah, I know, “Broadway is all about doing things live” – but surely Broadway patrons are the more appropriate arbiters of that maxim. If they are bent on seeing live music, then productions that do not use live music will suffer. They use live music because that’s what the product is, meaning yes, it’s a live production and people go for the full experience. I would think that the theatre going public would feel cheated if recorded music was used. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/25 "2003-03-11T06:49:56Z")
Broadway is a part of our cultural hertiage, just like European countries have their opera houses. As with most cultural heritages, it is getting a little bulky and outdated. But it still brings in tons of tourism that helps the entire economy, provides work for people in not-so-in-demand professions and gives New York and America something to be proud of. Using recorded music and the like may help individual producers, but it will ultimately dillute the value of broadway as a tourist attraction and an cultural institution. In the end it will hurt everybody involved. On the other hand, allowing producers to cut the role of live music will serve little purpose. It’s not like they are having trouble finding people to produce Broadway shows because they don’t want to hire musicians. So in the end, all that can come out of this is harm. We have nothing to gain, but we have all of Broadway to lose. ---
**Author:** ![Jervoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@Jervoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jervoise)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/26 "2003-03-11T07:05:09Z")
With respect, **EasyPhil** and **even sven** , I believe you’re missing the point. If there is a demand for live music on Broadway – and there is – then theatres will provide the required musicians. What **Dewey** is getting at is the strong-arm tactics of the union FORCING producers to hire musicans, whether the production demands it or not. Let us not talking of “losing Broadway”. As long as theatre-goers WANT to see live musicans in shows, then musicians they shall have. This issue is about anti-competitive market behaviour, not “cultural institutions”. ---
**Author:** ![hazel-rah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hazel-rah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hazel-rah)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/27 "2003-03-11T07:15:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Informing the public is one thing. Forcing theatres to run their businesses a certain way to save your own skin is another entirely. Hey, it’s a free country. If the theater owners don’t like dealing with unions then they can start a theater and not deal with them at all. Maybe the best performers are all in unions, so the shows at the non-union theaters will suck, but again… it’s a free country. The performers can join unions, and if you wanna use those perfomers, you gotta accept their terms. One of which happens to be X number of live musicians per show. There is no “strong-arming” going on here. A contract is a contract. If the theater owners didn’t like the terms, they didn’t have to sign. That’s just capitalism… sometimes you just don’t have as much power as the people you’re entering into a contract with, so you can’t dictate the terms you’d like. Happens to me all the time when I’m looking for a job. No reason employers should be immune to market forces… I’m not. -fh ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/28 "2003-03-11T08:22:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hazel-rah \* > Hey, it’s a free country. If the theater owners don’t like dealing with unions then they can start a theater and not deal with them at all. Maybe the best performers are all in unions, so the shows at the non-union theaters will suck, but again… it’s a free country. The performers can join unions, and if you wanna use those perfomers, you gotta accept their terms. One of which happens to be X number of live musicians per show. Exactly. Why do these “market forces” that some of you keep touting only work one way? According to this “market forces” logic, if people are hell bent on seeing cheaper shows without live music, then they will demand scab shows with no live musicians, and producers will produce them, right?. Problem solved. How is it “collusion” when actors respect the musicians picket line, but it’s not collusion when all the hotels in Vegas get together and decide to get rid of live music? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow_ > The whole point of the picket line is to prevent the use of recorded music. And demanding that Broadway patrons cross a picket line – an intimidating prospect at best – to evidence their desire for recorded music is just silly. Wait, didn’t you argue that patrons should be expected to quiz the ticket seller in order to find out whether the music will be canned? So in your book it’s o.k. for people to have to go out of their way to evidence their desire for live music, but it’s not o.k. for them to have to do something as simple as walk past a picket line to evidence their desire for canned music? ---
**Author:** ![hazel-rah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hazel-rah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hazel-rah)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/29 "2003-03-11T10:17:25Z")
Let me add a little bit more in order to frame my response in the context of the OP, who asked: > [@](#): > > I was wondering if anyone could justify (other than “because we can”) the union requirement that each theatre have a minimum number of musicians. The justification is of course profit. Profit doesn’t have to be measured purely in terms of dollars, either. It can be the reduced stress of having guaranteed employment, or anything else people desire enough to bring to bear on the market. -fh ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/30 "2003-03-11T12:56:30Z")
My understanding is that this _is_ about losing the institution. That is apparently what happened in Vegas. And I have been to shows where there was recorded music – even on Broadway. It’s awful. Claims that “people aren’t going to stand for this” are absurd. If you don’t happen to like “Oklahoma” with canned music, what are you going to do? Go to the competing “Oklahoma” across the street? Is the couple from Iowa who wanted to see a Broadway show all their lives are just gonna throw away the tickets or angrily demand that their money be refunded if they suddenly find out the music is “canned”? People are going to riffle through back issues of the New York Papers for the original review to see if the show is using live music? Give me a break! People will be stuck with whatever the producers end up giving them, which is why the musicians are right yo fight for this issue now. Of course it’s naked self-interest! But why is that a bad thing? And if the musician’s union (who has an interest) doesn’t fight this, then who will? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/31 "2003-03-11T13:29:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > **How is it “collusion” when actors respect the musicians picket line, but it’s not collusion when all the hotels in Vegas get together and decide to get rid of live music?** Cite for the proposition that “all Vegas theatres got together” and decided to can live music? If they actually met and decided this, they would be committing a fairly huge violation of the antitrust laws. If, on the other hand, some theatres started using canned music and saw no dropoff in attendance and the rest of the venues, observing this fact, rapidly followed suit, then that’s a different matter entirely.\*\* > [@](#): > > Wait, didn’t you argue that patrons should be expected to quiz the ticket seller in order to find out whether the music will be canned? So in your book it’s o.k. for people to have to go out of their way to evidence their desire for live music, but it’s not o.k. for them to have to do something as simple as walk past a picket line to evidence their desire for canned music? \*\* Asking the ticket seller “will the show use live music?” requires minimal effort on the part of the consumer. And as noted, the information will be available from other sources anyhow. That is a far cry from suggesting a patron have to cross a picket line, which can be a physically and emotionally intimidating thing to do. At the very least, the patron could be expected to be called vicious names. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/32 "2003-03-11T13:37:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CalMeacham \* > \*\*Claims that “people aren’t going to stand for this” are absurd. If you don’t happen to like “Oklahoma” with canned music, what are you going to do? Go to the competing “Oklahoma” across the street? \*\* No, you’ll go to another show. Or something different entirely. You’ll vote with your dollars. \*\* > [@](#): > > Is the couple from Iowa who wanted to see a Broadway show all their lives are just gonna throw away the tickets or angrily demand that their money be refunded if they suddenly find out the music is “canned”? \*\* Said couple should have asked when they bought their ticket. \*\* > [@](#): > > People are going to riffle through back issues of the New York Papers for the original review to see if the show is using live music? \*\* Most theatre guides include a listing of all running shows with a snippet from the original review and information about the show (location, performers, etc). You don’t need to “rifle through back issues” to find out that information. And if a consumer is overhwhelmingly concerned about having live music but can’t be bothered to take the minimal step of inquiring at the box office or reading a theatre guide, then too bad for him. Caveat emptor. I was recently disappointed when I bought a Sprint phone and found out when I got home that their ringtone policy wasn’t as freewheeling as other cellphone services. Too bad for me; I could have easily asked the salesperson before I made my purchase. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/33 "2003-03-11T13:38:51Z")
Once an actor has his Equity card, Equity prohibits his working in a non-Equity house. When I did dinner theater, we cast an absolutely amazing performer in the role of Joe in _Showboat_. He had this penetrating, basso profundo voice that shook the rafters during “Old Man River.” He was also working under an assumed name. Why? Because he was terrified that Equity would discover he had accepted the job with our little non-Equity house… but he needed the work. This sort of policy strong-arming is what I object to by unions. If companies get together to control prices, it’s a violation of anti-trust laws. The law forces competition among companies and doesn’t permit them to collude to set prices behind the scenes. But no similar law exists for labor. So a strike by the musicians causes the Equity and IATSE workers to refuse to cross the picket lines, even though the latter have valid and undisputed contracts. This is perfectly legal… but then, so would corporate price-fxing be perfectly legal, absent the anti-trust law. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/34 "2003-03-11T13:43:27Z")
By the way – this is not merely a theoretical exercise for me. I would be very surprised to find many posters here that have seen more Broadway shows than I. Just as an example, from the current crop of Broadway productions, I have seen: Urinetown, Phantom, Rent, The Producers, Man of La Mancha, Les Mis, Mamma Mia, Gypsy, Flower Drum Song, 42nd Street, Aida, and Gypsy. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/35 "2003-03-11T13:50:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > \*\*But no similar law exists for labor. \*\* [Extreme nitpick] The antitrust laws, IIRC, originally were used against labor, on precisely the price-fixing grounds you cite; Congress then wrote in an exemption for unions. Thus, the law exists; it’s just that labor has been given a carve-out. [/Extreme nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/36 "2003-03-11T14:16:16Z")
> [@](#): > > ## quote: > > ## Originally posted by CalMeacham Claims that “people aren’t going to stand for this” are absurd. If you don’t happen to like “Oklahoma” with canned music, what are you going to do? Go to the competing “Oklahoma” across the street? > > ## No, you’ll go to another show. Or something different entirely. You’ll vote with your dollars. quote: > > ## Is the couple from Iowa who wanted to see a Broadway show all their lives are just gonna throw away the tickets or angrily demand that their money be refunded if they suddenly find out the music is “canned”? > > ## Said couple should have asked when they bought their ticket. quote: > > ## People are going to riffle through back issues of the New York Papers for the original review to see if the show is using live music? > > Most theatre guides include a listing of all running shows with a snippet from the original review and information about the show (location, performers, etc). You don’t need to “rifle through back issues” to find out that information. Boy, is you naive. My point is that if shows go to canned music, there won’t be anything else available. People won’t be able to “vote with their dollars” – it’s “take it or leave it”. And the shows sure as hell won’t include information (live or canned) that might make people bolt the show if anything else is available. In short, I find your suggestions absurd – it wouldn’t happen that way. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/37 "2003-03-11T14:28:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CalMeacham \* > \*\*Boy, is you naive. > > My point is that if shows go to canned music, there won’t be anything else available. People won’t be able to “vote with their dollars” – it’s “take it or leave it”. \*\* Last I checked, attending Broadway shows was not necessary for survival. You can still “vote with your dollars” – by choosing other entertainment venues if you don’t like canned music. A dropoff in ticket sales upon adoption of canned music certainly sends a message to Broadway producers.\*\* > [@](#): > > And the shows sure as hell won’t include information (live or canned) that might make people bolt the show if anything else is available. In short, I find your suggestions absurd – it wouldn’t happen that way. \*\* What’s absurd is suggesting that the extensive media coverage of Broadway would fail to include information on whether or not a show is live. Do you seriously think that reporters covering the Broadway scene would fail to make that very basic inquiry? And it’s even more absurd to suggest that a show using live music would fail to advertise that fact, since it would give him an advantage over his canned-music competitors. Your position is what’s truly absurd – believing as you do that consumers won’t have any way to figure out if a show uses live or canned music before they buy a ticket. That truly is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/38 "2003-03-11T14:57:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Narrad \* > \*\*With respect, **EasyPhil** and **even sven** , I believe you’re missing the point. > > If there is a demand for live music on Broadway – and there is – then theatres will provide the required musicians. > > What **Dewey** is getting at is the strong-arm tactics of the union FORCING producers to hire musicans, whether the production demands it or not. > > Let us not talking of “losing Broadway”. As long as theatre-goers WANT to see live musicans in shows, then musicians they shall have. This issue is about anti-competitive market behaviour, not “cultural institutions”. \*\* How is the union using strong arm tactics? Are they beating people up with bats, threatening family members, or are they excercising their right to not accept what is not in the best interest of their membership? A contract negotiation is just that, a negotiation, not a session where one party gets what they want and the other just signs off on it. What’s the anti-competive market behaviour you speak of? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/39 "2003-03-11T15:16:21Z")
My, we _are_ thin-skinned. you’re incredibly naive to think that anything approaching free-market capitalism in its theoretical glory is going to prevail in as small and limited a pond as Broadway musicals. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/40 "2003-03-11T15:18:54Z")
“Strong-arm” is not an unfair way to describe the fact that when the musicians strike, other unions also strike. Equity and IATSE members refuse to work. This sort of collusion is legal, but the analogous collusion on the part of owners would not be legal. - Rick [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366.md?page=3)