# Can anyone justify the minimum-musician union requirement on B'way? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2003, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366 "2003-03-10T18:51:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/41 "2003-03-11T17:19:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CalMeacham \* > **My, we _are_ thin-skinned.** 😕 I have no idea where you got that impression.\*\* > [@](#): > > you’re incredibly naive to think that anything approaching free-market capitalism in its theoretical glory is going to prevail in as small and limited a pond as Broadway musicals. \*\* Actually, Broadway’s a pretty big market – there are around forty theatres that qualify as being “Broadway” and even more that qualify as “off-Broadway.” If the free market can work effectively to determine which grocery store in a small town prospers, surely it can work effectively in a teeny-tiny town like New York. I mean, really, what part of my post do you seriously dispute? Do you deny that Broadway recieves extensive media coverage? Do you deny that theatre guides exist? Do you deny that patrons could inquire about live music at the time of purchase? Do you deny that producers using live music will want to advertise that fact to take market share from their competitors? What, exactly, is problematic in those scenarios? ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/42 "2003-03-11T18:26:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > \*\*We have productions where the actors are pared to cut costs. They are called “animated movies.” \*\* What are you talking about? Do you realize that actors do the voices? Would you say that live action movies put animators out of work? As far as the picket lines 1 you can’t cross them as the actors stuck as well so there are no performances. 2 you would not have to cross the picket lines as they are not allowed to block access. 3 There are police stationed with any picket line in NYC. There is a janitor strike at a hotel near my office right now. There are two protesters and one cope there when I go by to get my lunch. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/43 "2003-03-11T18:50:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zebra \* > \*\*What are you talking about? Do you realize that actors do the voices? Would you say that live action movies put animators out of work? \*\* I was being sarcastic. Cut me some slack. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/44 "2003-03-11T19:13:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > Cite for the proposition that “all Vegas theatres got together” and decided to can live music? Oh, are we asking for cites now? How quaint. Cite for “surely press coverage of Broadway will include noting whether or not a given show will utilize live music”? Cite for "If the number of instruments is insufficient to produce quality music, then the show will suffer and will close sooner rather than later. "? Cite for “Obviously, all musicians will not be put out of work”? Cite for “If Vegas patrons are still going to shows, they obviously don’t care much as to whether the music is live or recorded”? Cite for “Articles about such shows will certainly note whether or not the music is live”? > [@](#): > > That is a far cry from suggesting a patron have to cross a picket line, which can be a physically and emotionally intimidating thing to do. Oh, give me a break. It is nothing of the sort. > [@](#): > > At the very least, the patron could be expected to be called vicious names. Cite? These are musicians, not Teamsters. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/45 "2003-03-11T20:04:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > **Oh, are we asking for cites now? How quaint.** Quaint, nothin’. I’m either assuming the truth of what you’ve said or just rendering my own interpretations or predictions in each of your examples. \*\* > [@](#): > > Cite for “surely press coverage of Broadway will include noting whether or not a given show will utilize live music”? \*\* A prediction, and one that I don’t think you can plausibly deny. \*\* > [@](#): > > Cite for "If the number of instruments is insufficient to produce quality music, then the show will suffer and will close sooner rather than later. "? \*\* A prediction, and one based on how competitive businesses work. If the show is substandard in any way – whether because the music is insufficient, or the acting is poor, or the story is dumb – it will do less well than its superior competitors, and will have a shorter run. \*\* > [@](#): > > Cite for “Obviously, all musicians will not be put out of work”?\*\* Unless you seriously believe that Broadway patrons genuinely don’t care about live music, this is necessarily the case. If other theatres go to canned music, and the demand for live music is there, smart producers will use live music in order to capture market share. \*\* > [@](#): > > Cite for “If Vegas patrons are still going to shows, they obviously don’t care much as to whether the music is live or recorded”?\*\* A truism. If they were seriously bothered by the lack of live music, they wouldn’t spend their money on the shows. Even if they have a preference for live music, it obviously isn’t a strong enough preference for them to ditch going to the show.\*\* > [@](#): > > Cite for “Articles about such shows will certainly note whether or not the music is live”?\*\* Again, that’s a prediction, and one I don’t think you can plausibly deny. Why would the Broadway press corp omit such a crucial tidbit of information? \*\* > [@](#): > > Oh, give me a break. It is nothing of the sort. > > Cite? These are musicians, not Teamsters. \*\* I see. And musicians are all sweetness and light, while Teamsters are all knuckle-dragging violent Neanderthals. Nice stereotype you’ve got working there. Part of the purpose of a picket line is to make people feel shitty about crossing it. It’s absurd to suggest that crossing a picket line is something that is easy to do. And besides, as pointed out, in the current situation patrons don’t even have that choice, since all the actors and other principals have joined in the strike. It isn’t like a producer can just plug in anyone off the street sight unseen to fill those spots. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/46 "2003-03-11T21:29:54Z")
What about long-term job security as a reason? Let’s say that a large number producers fire all the musicians and go with canned music. The public finds out about this over a period of time, let’s say 4-6 months (since the producers don’t advertise the fact), at the end of which ticket sales are waaaay down. At the end of the 4-6 months the producers realize their mistake and hire back the musicians, but the damage has been done- the public feels burned by seeing these lesser shows at full prices without the lack of live music being publicized upfront, and doesn’t trust that the producers have returned the shows to their past glory. Ticket sales decline over the long term, shows go under, musicians go on unemployment because the producers wanted to tamper with a working formula. [sub]I don’t necessarily agree with this, just pointing it out as an argument.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/47 "2003-03-11T22:02:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > I see. And musicians are all sweetness and light, while Teamsters are all knuckle-dragging violent Neanderthals. Nice stereotype you’ve got working there. Actually, there have been numerous press reports about striking Teamsters involved in incidents of violence. Do you have similar proof of striking Broadway musicians doing the same, or is that just another one of your “predictions”?:rolleyes: If you don’t have a cite, then stop with the innuendo. > [@](#): > > Part of the purpose of a picket line is to make people feel shitty about crossing it. It’s absurd to suggest that crossing a picket line is something that is easy to do. The picketers are there to inform the public about the issue. Not everyone shares the confidence that you have in your “prediction” that the issue will be dealt with fairly in the press. You inexplicably believe that it is the patrons duty to inquire as to the status of the orchestra pit _before_ they buy the tickets. I, however, do not see the harm in having union members show up at the performance to educate the public. Patrons are free to cross the line if they so choose. I have crossed picket lines in my life - it’s no big deal. > [@](#): > > And besides, as pointed out, in the current situation patrons don’t even have that choice, since all the actors and other principals have joined in the strike. It isn’t like a producer can just plug in anyone off the street sight unseen to fill those spots. Well the producers should have thought of that before they refused to negotiate. Things like minimums are negotiable; it happens all the time. Reduced operations can easily be written into a contract. Limited pressings and low-budget recordings are examples where concessions are made in order to allow the work to get done when resources are smaller. If you want to be able to do shows that are scored for smaller groups, you can put an exception into the contract. The problem is, it can’t happen when management stonewalls. If the theaters say “It’s my way or the highway”, striking becomes the only alternative. Dewey, I get the impression that your position really goes beyond the question of whether minimums should exist. It sounds like you are saying that unions should not exist, period. ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/48 "2003-03-11T22:07:00Z")
The fact that there might not be any shows with live music if there was not a union is strong evidence that the economics of live music do not make sense and that the public does not want or value live music. If the public did value live music, the musicians wouldn’t need to complain so loudly. Again, I say buggy whips on broadway. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/49 "2003-03-11T22:15:23Z")
Yeah, we heard you the first time.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/50 "2003-03-11T22:41:57Z")
**Blowero** , do you value live music in Broadway shows? Do you believe most of the theatre-going public does? ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/51 "2003-03-12T00:24:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > \*\* This sort of policy strong-arming is what I object to by unions. If companies get together to control prices, it’s a violation of anti-trust laws. \*\* Consumer prices, and in some instances other prices. In the present (happily, now solved) instance, the producers of the Broadway theaters are doing exactly that – banding together to set a common price for labor. This instance also occurs with west-coast dockworkers, sports leagues and elsewhere. In other industries, it’s more of a “pattern” thing than direct cooperation – company A will do its labor deal first and it will set the pattern for other producers (as in the auto industry). The “right” to respect a picket line is also not absolute. It is a subject in collective bargaining. If the actors and stagehands did not have the contractual right to respect the musicians picket lines (or if they were guaranteed some protection by law rather than through the collective bargaining process), than I’d agree with you. As I mentioned above, most of this is happily mooted. Three cheers for Mayor Bloomberg (who, IMO, hasn’t earned as many cheers as I had hoped he would) for taking the lead and getting the sides back to the table. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/52 "2003-03-12T00:39:27Z")
As a wholly irrelevant aside, I hatehatehate being the 50th post in a thread. No idea why. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/53 "2003-03-12T00:53:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > **The picketers are there to inform the public about the issue. Not everyone shares the confidence that you have in your “prediction” that the issue will be dealt with fairly in the press.** This is the third time I’ve had to say this, so please listen carefully: my references to what the press will do are not tied to the current (now resolved) situation. I am referring to what the Broadway press will report on day-to-day matters of a routine sort, when all the picketers have gone home. I’m talking about simple factual information – “Musical X is playing at theatre Y, produced by Z and starring A, B, and C; the music is prerecorded.” There is no “fair” or “unfair” in this type of reporting. It’s a straightforward description of objective matters related to the production. When the Broadway press informs the public that the music will be canned or live, it is no more slanted than when it reports on who the leading actors will be. \*\* > [@](#): > > You inexplicably believe that it is the patrons duty to inquire as to the status of the orchestra pit _before_ they buy the tickets. \*\* Yes, I expect consumers to take reasonable steps to inform themselves about the purchases they make. \*\* > [@](#): > > , however, do not see the harm in having union members show up at the performance to educate the public. Patrons are free to cross the line if they so choose. I have crossed picket lines in my life - it’s no big deal. \*\* Bully for you. I suspect most people do not sashay through a picket line quite so cavalierly. While the union has the right to picket, it’s silly to suggest that the line won’t discourage patrons from attendance – if that wasn’t the case, there wouldn’t be much point in picketing. \*\* > [@](#): > > Dewey, I get the impression that your position really goes beyond the question of whether minimums should exist. It sounds like you are saying that unions should not exist, period. \*\* No, it’s just that I see a qualitative difference between agitating for, say, a better dental plan and agitating for a rule that forces theatres to pay musicians who don’t actually play in the show (as per **storyteller0910** ’s post). ---
**Author:** ![djbdjb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@djbdjb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/djbdjb)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/54 "2003-03-12T07:11:08Z")
Can anyone give an example of a union-member that has ever learned enough economics to understand why unions are venal ? ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/55 "2003-03-12T08:54:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > This is the third time I’ve had to say this, so please listen carefully: my references to what the press will do are not tied to the current (now resolved) situation. I am referring to what the Broadway press will report on day-to-day matters of a routine sort, when all the picketers have gone home. I’m talking about simple factual information – “Musical X is playing at theatre Y, produced by Z and starring A, B, and C; the music is prerecorded.” Oh, whatever. This is the third time I am disagreeing with you. PROVE that reporters will always be sure to say the music is prerecorded, _without_ the musician’s union pointing it out to them, or shut up. > [@](#): > > I suspect most people do not sashay through a picket line quite so cavalierly. While the union has the right to picket, it’s silly to suggest that the line won’t discourage patrons from attendance – if that wasn’t the case, there wouldn’t be much point in picketing. Um, excuse me - your point before was that it causes **great angst** for people to cross a picket line; now you are backpedalling to it will “discourage” them. I never said the point wasn’t to discourage them; I was merely disagreeing with your wholly unsupported implication that the strikers were attempting to intimidate patrons. > [@](#): > > \*\*No, it’s just that I see a qualitative difference between agitating for, say, a better dental plan and agitating for a rule that forces theatres to pay musicians who don’t actually play in the show (as per **storyteller0910** ’s post). First of all, that’s entirely anecdotal, and we don’t even know if it’s true. Second, if that kind of thing is happening a lot (and I don’t know that it is), then the solution would be to deal with it in contract negotiations, NOT to completely bar union members from EVER bargaining for any kind of job security. I agree that it’s silly to pay people to sit and play cards, but I disagree with your extremist solution. What I’m getting from your posts is that any attempt to bargain for job security should be banned, and that workers should be forced to be in a position where they can be fired at any time on the whim of management, so long as management decides they can increase their profit by doing so. What good is a dental plan if you don’t have a job? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/56 "2003-03-12T14:13:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > **Oh, whatever. This is the third time I am disagreeing with you. PROVE that reporters will always be sure to say the music is prerecorded, _without_ the musician’s union pointing it out to them, or shut up.** Now you’re just being stupid. Do you seriously think the print media would omit such a critical piece of data from their list of “goings on” on Broadway? Why would they? Isn’t that information their readers would find important? Aren’t they in the business of informing their readers? Isn’t that kind of data the very reason their readers buy their product?\*\* > [@](#): > > Um, excuse me - your point before was that it causes **great angst** for people to cross a picket line; now you are backpedalling to it will “discourage” them. I never said the point wasn’t to discourage them; I was merely disagreeing with your wholly unsupported implication that the strikers were attempting to intimidate patrons.\*\* I still think your typical midwestern couple would be seriously uncomfortable crossing a picket line, given that that picket line basically tells them that by crossing they are supporting the soulless demands of management. \*\* > [@](#): > > First of all, that’s entirely anecdotal, and we don’t even know if it’s true. \*\* You calling **storyteller** a liar? \*\* > [@](#): > > Second, if that kind of thing is happening a lot (and I don’t know that it is), then the solution would be to deal with it in contract negotiations, NOT to completely bar union members from EVER bargaining for any kind of job security. I agree that it’s silly to pay people to sit and play cards, but I disagree with your extremist solution. \*\* It’s a sad day when the simple suggestion that the market decide how many musicians are needed is deemed “extremist,” given that this is how manpower decisions are made in virtually every other private sector enterprise. If the producer in a theatre with a 15-man minimum thinks that a 10-man group of musicians will sound best, he is forced to either pay five musicians for not working or to sacrifice his artistic vision for the production. All in favor of a completely venal union rule. \*\* > [@](#): > > What I’m getting from your posts is that any attempt to bargain for job security should be banned, and that workers should be forced to be in a position where they can be fired at any time on the whim of management, so long as management decides they can increase their profit by doing so. What good is a dental plan if you don’t have a job? \*\* Ask the buggy whip manufacturers. Seriously, if the public demands live music then musicians will not want for work. If the public does not demand live music, then there will be no work for musicians – nor should there be. If that is the case (and I doubt it is so), then the musicians should contemplate a career change. Just like the buggy whip manufacturers. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/57 "2003-03-12T15:05:57Z")
Actually, blowero, it’s not at all anecdotal; it’s relatively common knowledge. My wife happens to be a member of the musicians union, and she knows people who actually have the extraordinary good fortune to be paid to not play. Really, if you don’t realize this, than I’m guessing you haven’t done much reading on this subject; it’s been in virtually every article about the strike that’s been published. Do a quick Google search using the terms “musicians strike” and “walkers.” Here’s one, from ET Online but drawn from Reuters: [http://www.etonline.com/reuters/N07223489.htm](http://www.etonline.com/reuters/N07223489.htm) As for the rest, I can’t believe that you’re seriously disputing that reporters assigned to cover the Broadway beat would neglect to mention the composition of the pit, be it live or synthesized. I mean, they are _reporters_. Their entire job is to report the facts of a situation, in particular the _basic_ facts. You want a cite? Well, because no shows currently use recorded music, I can’t give you one. However, every news story about a musical names the composer, librettist, leading and usually supporting actors, often describes the set, costuming, and plot. You tell me why you expect the fact that the music is live or recorded to be different from these facts, leaving reporters to deliberately leave it out of the story. - FCF ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/58 "2003-03-12T16:19:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > \*\ ***Blowero** , do you value live music in Broadway shows? Do you believe most of the theatre-going public does? \*\* Care to respond to this question? You may have missed it at the bottom of page 1. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/59 "2003-03-12T17:23:03Z")
I’m rather strongly pro-union, but I think there are certain retrictions that unions shoot themselves in the foot by negotiating for, because they make the entire union movement look bad. One is the subject of this thread: negotiating the number of employees an employer must carry. I think that’s absurd, and it creates the exact sort of thing that **storyteller** has mentioned: employees who, by contract with the union, must be hired in order to sit around and goof off. In the short run, yeah, what a deal - but it’s the sort of thing that makes the jobs of the corporate anti-union flacks awfully easy. The other one is just like it - the mandated inflexibility in job categories, where the guy who chops lettuce and runs the dishwashing machine in the kitchen can’t go out and bus tables in a pinch, because that job contractually can only be done by a busboy. I bet this applies here too - that those ‘walker’ musicians can’t be required to act as ushers, for instance, while they’re being employed to sit around and not play music. In either case, the union is forcing the employer to pay people he doesn’t need to do nothing. I’m not sure unions should have the legal right to demand that, and given that they do, I think it makes all unions look bad when some do negotiate such deals. I strongly believe that every worker should be represented by a union, to negotiate those matters that are rarely set on an employee-by-employee basis: hours, vacation, medical coverage, pensions, safety matters, and of course a framework within which individual employees would negotiate their pay and seek promotions. But how many employees one needs, and what they should do, should be completely up to management. When that power is taken away from management, the employer can’t respond very flexibly to the market, and the market works a damned sight worse as a result. I’m far from being a free-market purist, but as a mechanism for allocating scarce resources, it’s the best there is. This sort of featherbedding gums that up entirely. The choice is taken away from the producer to put the money paid to ‘walkers’ into costumes or set design instead, or to hold down ticket prices, or to make more money, which increases the incentive to put on more shows next season. Or to use recorded music instead of live, and find out how well (or poorly) that works, from the standpoint of his customers. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366/60 "2003-03-12T18:31:22Z")
O.K. Dewey - you’ve crossed a couple lines here: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > Now you’re just being stupid. Your aggressive debating style is one thing, but I draw the line at personal insults. > [@](#): > > \*\*You calling **storyteller** a liar? Now THAT’s bordering on slander. I did not call anyone a liar. **Storyteller** might have been repeating an apocryphal story. That doesn’t make someone a liar. I see that Storyteller has since provided a more detailed explanation of how he (she?) came to know about this, and I am satisfied with that. Dewey, you need to work on your decorum. Until then, I’m through responding to you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-justify-the-minimum-musician-union-requirement-on-bway/160366.md?page=4)