# Can anyone name any defensible, legitimate value to "voter suppression"?

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-name-any-defensible-legitimate-value-to-voter-suppression/268283>\
**Category:** Great Debates\
**Created:** [October 8, 2004, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-name-any-defensible-legitimate-value-to-voter-suppression/268283 "2004-10-08T22:48:08Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\
**Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-name-any-defensible-legitimate-value-to-voter-suppression/268283/21 "2004-10-10T04:43:55Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> Jim Gardner, communications director for the Missouri Democratic Party, describes some of the tactics that he says have happened in his state during past elections: “Videotaping people as they’re coming into the polling place. Parking near a polling place in a Crown Victoria with a couple of guys in dark suits. . . . A whisper campaign that everyone trying to vote who has outstanding traffic tickets will be arrested.” Gardner, **who says the party had reports of such occurrences in 2000** , says the Missouri **Democrats have also heard stories** in past elections of people handing out flyers in Democratic precincts that say, “Don’t forget to vote on Wednesday, November 4,” when the election is Tuesday, November 3.

I bolded some of the goofier bits; Some Dems claim to ‘have heard stories’, and I am supposed to take that as a sign that my party is going Nazi on me? Color me less-than-impressed with the veracity of Mr.Gardner’s claims. I am a bit skeptical of claims that the MIB were trying to scare voters (or that the MIB are in fact Republicans for that matter) or that ‘whisper campaigns’, (presuming that they exist, and are in fact started by Republicans, certainly neither of which are proven to be the case) constitute ‘voter intimidation’ any more than the cries of Democrats that Republicans/Bush want to ‘Take away Medicare’ or any other scare-tactic that is used.

I don’t believe that a campaign of voter-intimidation is occurring. I would even cede that perhaps some individuals may be doing some unethical things (_may_ being the keyword, little, if anything, is proven), but deal with them on a case-by-case basis. There is no need to defend the GOP against such spurious claims.

As for the ID bit, I just don’t see it. So African-Americans are purportedly less likely to have state-issued ID? So what? How about we fix that problem, rather than use it to keep the potential for vote fraud open? Perhaps some of those people worrying about ‘whisper campaigns’ could start a ‘whisper campaign’ that you really should have a state-issued piece of identification. It is well within the realm of reason to ask a person to prove that they are who they say they are when voting. In the great state of Michigan, they cost $10.00. Surely the simpler solution is just to make arrangements for those who truly cannot afford a ID card to have the state (or concerned citizens, for that matter), to pay for them. Non-issue, in my eyes.

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**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\
**Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-name-any-defensible-legitimate-value-to-voter-suppression/268283/22 "2004-10-10T06:30:30Z")

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> [@Brutus](#):
>
> As for the ID bit, I just don’t see it.

Because it slows down the voting process, and leads to longer lines outside the polling place. And that will cause some people who see a long line for voting to turn around and leave without voting.

And there is a likely party component to this. Conventional wisdom is that it is more likely to be Democratic voters than Republican ones who leave when there are long waits to vote. The reasons given are that:

1. Democratic voters are more likely to be rushed than Republican voters: more work factory jobs than office jobs, so being late is more serious; more are poor and dependent on public transportation, etc.
2. Busy polling places with long waits are more likely in larger cities, which tend to vote more Democratic than suburban & rural areas.

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**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\
**Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-name-any-defensible-legitimate-value-to-voter-suppression/268283/23 "2004-10-10T07:46:33Z")

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> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#):
>
> Because it slows down the voting process, and leads to longer lines outside the polling place. And that will cause some people who see a long line for voting to turn around and leave without voting.

Well I am a bit suspicious of that as well, _but_…Let’s assume that’s true. What makes more sense: Drop the ID requirement, and supposedly speed things up (it does take precious seconds to whip out a ID card, I admit), or work to get more polling places opened? If the system is broke in places, the solution isn’t to break it further.

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**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\
**Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-name-any-defensible-legitimate-value-to-voter-suppression/268283/24 "2004-10-10T13:29:32Z")

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Just to add to the mix, here are a few more items.

This is from a [New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/07/opinion/07thu2.html) Opinion column:

> [@](#):
>
> When members of Mi Familia Vota, a Latino group, were registering voters recently on a Miami Beach sidewalk outside a building where new citizens were being sworn in, the Homeland Security Department ordered them to stop. The department gave all kinds of suspect reasons, which a federal court has since rejected, but it looked a lot as if someone at Homeland Security just didn’t want thousands of new Latino voters on the Florida rolls.
> 
> The suppression of minority votes is alive and well in 2004, driven by the sharp partisan divide across the nation. Because many minority groups vote heavily Democratic, some Republicans view keeping them from registering and voting as a tactic for victory - one that has a long history in American politics. It is rarely talked about publicly, but John Pappageorge, a Republican state legislator from Michigan, recently broke the taboo. He was quoted in The Detroit Free Press as saying, “If we do not suppress the Detroit vote, we’re going to have a tough time in this election cycle.” Detroit’s population is more than 80 percent black.
> 
> A recent report by the N.A.A.C.P. and People for the American Way includes page after page of examples of how this shabby business works. On Election Day, “ballot security” teams head for minority neighborhoods. They demand that voters produce identification when it is not required, take photographs of voters and single out immigrant voters for special scare tactics.
> 
> Two years ago in the governor’s race in Maryland, leaflets appeared in Baltimore saying that before voters showed up at the polls, they had to pay off all parking tickets and overdue rent. The same year in Louisiana, fliers were distributed in African-American areas to tell voters, falsely, that if they did not want to vote on Election Day, they could still vote three days later.
> 
> What is particularly discouraging this year is the degree to which government officials have been involved in such efforts. In South Dakota’s hard-fought statewide Congressional race, poll workers turned away Native American voters who could not provide photo identification, which many of them do not have, even though the law clearly says identification is not required. In one heavily Native American county, the top elections official, who is white, wrote out instructions saying no one could vote without photo identification. In Texas, a white district attorney threatened to prosecute students at Prairie View A&M, a large, predominantly African-American campus, if they registered to vote from the school, even though they are entitled to by law.
> 
> And in Florida, the secretary of state, Glenda Hood, had a list prepared to purge felons from the voter rolls; the list had many errors and would have turned away an untold number of qualified black voters. She abandoned the list only when news organizations sued to make it public, then pointed out its many inaccuracies.
> 
> In addition to these blatant forms of vote suppression, elections officials have been adopting policies that appear neutral on their face but often have the effect, and perhaps the intent, of disproportionately disenfranchising minorities. With huge registration drives under way among minorities in swing states, some secretaries of state have adopted bizarrely rigid rules for new registrations.
> 
> In Florida, Ms. Hood is insisting that thousands of registration forms on which a citizenship box is not checked are invalid, even though elsewhere on the forms each applicant has sworn that he or she is a citizen. In Ohio, Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell was insisting until recently that any registration form that came in on anything less than 80-pound paper stock had to be rejected. The continued disenfranchisement of convicted felons in many states also has an unmistakable racial component.
> 
> The suppression of minority votes has continued because it is perceived as a winning tactic, and because it is rarely punished. This needs to change.
> 
> Trying to prevent members of minorities from voting can be a violation of federal and state law. Election officials, poll watchers and voters should be on the lookout for vote suppression, and should report it. And prosecutors should look for criminal cases to pursue. A few high-profile prosecutions of political operatives, and even elections officials, would go a long way toward ending a disgraceful American tradition.

========

> [@](#):
>
> [Democrats Challenge Fla. Voting Policy](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=536&e=5&u=/ap/20041008/ap_on_el_pr/florida_voting_democrats)
> 
> The state Democratic Party filed a federal lawsuit accusing Florida’s secretary of state of violating federal law when she told elections supervisors to reject incomplete voter-registration forms.
> 
> The party asked a judge to order Glenda Hood to reverse her instructions to the state’s 67 counties.
> 
> Hood’s office told counties they should **disqualify voters who failed to check a box confirming they are U.S. citizens, _even if_ they signed an oath on the _same form_ swearing they are**. She and other state officials maintain that state and federal laws require the box to be checked.
> 
> “The Secretary of State’s Office says they want to err on the side of the voter, yet they want to disenfranchise people,” party Chairman Scott Maddox said.
> 
> The lawsuit was filed Thursday, the same day the NAACP sued a county elections supervisor in federal court, alleging the county disenfranchises blacks by having only one early voting site in an area where fewer minorities live

========

Here’s more about the Leon Country weirdness:

> [@](#):
>
> [Odd Happenings With the Voters](http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041007/NEWS/410070352/1036)
> 
> There seems to be very little question now that there is serious fraud going on in registering new voters. At least that appears to be the case in Leon County, where an alert elections supervisor noticed some suspicious happenings in the county.
> 
> Registration for the Nov. 2 general election closed Monday, and with the flood of last-minute registrations – particularly among younger, first-time voters – the recent events in Leon should give Florida’s other 66 election supervisors pause.
> 
> The Florida Department of Law Enforcement confirmed this week it is investigating 1,500 voter-registration forms from Leon County. The forms were apparently altered to register local students as Republicans.
> 
> Fraud has also been alleged in the collecting of signatures in support of placing amendments to Florida’s Constitution on the ballot. Those cases – and the latest possibility of fraudulent voter registrations – have something in common: In both instances, workers were paid for each signature collected or voter signed up.

========

> [@](#):
>
> [FBI plans to interview Florida Muslims ahead of election](http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/state/9865899.htm?1c)
> 
> ORLANDO, Fla. - Arab-Americans and Muslims in Florida are questioning the FBI’s latest plan to interview people nationwide to uncover possible terrorist plots that could disrupt the presidential election next month.
> 
> For the past week, FBI officials have held meetings across Florida with Islamic community leaders to explain a July directive from FBI Director Robert Mueller to seek new information about suspicious activity ahead of the Nov. 2 election.
> 
> Although Arab-American community leaders said they understand the need for vigilance, they raised questions about the plan.
> 
> “Our community is already afraid and jittery, because there has already been several rounds of detainees and interviews since 9-11,” said Ahmed Bedier, a Florida spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations.
> 
> “Arab-Americans will do everything in their capacity to ensure the security of this country,” said Taleb Salhab, president of the Arab-American Community Center of Central Florida. “However, we will not tolerate the violation of our community’s constitutional rights.”  
> …

========

Jim Hightower weighs in (Opinion piece)

> [@](#):
>
> [Intimidating Florida voters](http://yubanet.com/artman/publish/printer_13996.shtml)
> 
> Governor Jeb Bush is out to make his state of Florida the next Florida.
> 
> In 2000, Jeb used such crude tactics as illegally purging voter lists to help engineer his brother’s 537-vote “victory” in that election – and now, here he goes again. As one peer of Florida’s GOP establishment candidly puts it: “A Democrat can’t win a statewide election in Florida without a high turnout of African-Americans. It’s no secret that the name of the game for Republicans is to restrain that turnout as much as possible.”
> 
> The Orlando League of Voters can attest to that. This African-American civic group has played a big role in turning Orlando from a Republican stronghold into a city that increasingly votes Democratic. Their reward for getting involved in the democratic process is to have Jeb Bush’s state police suddenly come knock-knock-knocking on the doors of some 50 of the League’s grassroots leaders. These leaders, mostly elderly Black women, find it frightening to be confronted in their homes by armed troopers interrogating them about their electoral participation.
> 
> They are not charged with any crime. Instead, police say they’re investigating vague allegations that some voter fraud might have occurred in this spring’s mayoral election. Yet, Jeb’s own state police honcho wrote in a May letter, that “there was no basis to support the allegations,” and he declared “this matter closed.”
> 
> But it was not closed. Police now say the chief’s letter was “poorly worded,” and the intimidating in-home interrogations continued this summer as the presidential election heated up. Jeb’s police action is creating a blanket of fear among the League’s volunteers who worry that their perfectly-legal efforts will land them in jail.
> 
> Of course, Jeb and his police honcho say there’s no political motive involved, but when asked how long the Orlando investigation will go on, police say it might continue right through November 2nd.

========

In other states’ news, check out this **absentee ballot** from Michigan, the same place that doesn’t like Michael Moore’s newly signed-up voters, and who would really really like to give Detroit to Canada. Look at it very very closely. Look at the arrows. Look who you’d be voting for if you wanted to vote for Kerry/Edwards.

> **[(no title)](https://2004-elections.livejournal.com/306938.html)**
>
> Alright, time for some awesome election year bullshit. Behind the cut is Michigan's absentee ballot (scanned by a friend of mine). Pay close attention to the Presidential section and the arrows... Wtf are they going to do to fix this? They've already...

I hope few Democrats voted absentee in Michigan.

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**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\
**Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-name-any-defensible-legitimate-value-to-voter-suppression/268283/25 "2004-10-10T17:27:35Z")

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> [@Brutus](#):
>
> I don’t believe that a campaign of voter-intimidation is occurring. I would even cede that perhaps some individuals may be doing some unethical things (_may_ being the keyword, little, if anything, is proven), but deal with them on a case-by-case basis. There is no need to defend the GOP against such spurious claims.

But that’s what this thread is about, **Brutus.** I am challenging anyone who dares to defend such voter-suppression practices **on principle,** regardless of what party or faction is doing them.

And there was a time in America – up to, say, 40 or even 30 years ago – when a lot of debaters would have been all too eager to defend voter-suppression tactics on principle, as good and necessary things. Even some of the debates over the more recent motor-voter legislation reflected a certain fear of the prospect of certain groups of people voting in unprecedented numbers. I’m just trying to find out if we have outgrown that attitude entirely, or reached a point where voter suppression has become one of those hypocritical practices that some political activists do in secret but would never, ever think of defending on principle in public.

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**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\
**Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-name-any-defensible-legitimate-value-to-voter-suppression/268283/26 "2004-10-10T18:41:14Z")

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Ha ha! The article I mentioned previously has turned up on another newspaper’s site. Read it before it too goes subscription-only: [http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3596205&thesection=news&thesubsection=world](http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3596205&thesection=news&thesubsection=world) Some highlights:

On voter intimidation:

> [@](#):
>
> It was odder still when, on the August polling day, sheriff’s deputies arrived at the supervisor’s office and surrounded the building with squad cars and “do not cross” barriers. Such police presence at election sites is technically illegal.
> 
> The sheriff’s department cited a possible terrorist threat and, according to a TV station, drew a parallel with the Madrid train bombings. The source of this threat was never identified, and the cordoning off of the supervisor’s office - which was doubling as a polling station and collection point for hand-delivered absentee ballots - looked even more suspicious because a contentious sheriff’s race was also conducted that day.

On the electronic voting machines:

> [@](#):
>
> One Miami precinct reported a 900 per cent turnout; another showed just one ballot cast out of 1637 registered voters.

On the felon list:

> [@](#):
>
> The state fought to keep this year’s list secret, only to have it forced into the open by court order. Sure enough, the list - prepared by the consultancy firm Accenture, which has contributed US$25,000 to Republican candidates in Florida - turned out to be top-heavy with black voters (including about 2000 people who had had their voting rights restored), and it included several people who could demonstrate that they had no criminal record at all.
> 
> Most startlingly, the list of 48,000 included only 61 Hispanic names - way out of line with the strength of both the general Hispanic population and the prison population of Hispanic people. It’s probably no coincidence that Hispanics in Florida - especially Cuban exiles - tend to vote Republican.

On voter registration:

> [@](#):
>
> Edeline Clermont, a member of the Haitian American Grassroots Coalition, said she knew of several cases where voters - herself included - received new voter cards in the mail without prompting, only to discover that the party registration had been surreptitiously changed from Democrat to either Republican or Independent. When Clermont went to vote in the August primaries, she was turned away at first because, she was told, she was not listed as a Democrat.

and

> [@](#):
>
> the National Association for the Advancement of Coloured People learned that a large number of voter registration forms collected from black citizens had been dumped in a garbage can - apparently the work of a pro-Republican operative who wanted to con them into thinking that they had completed their paperwork.

On ballot fraud:

> [@](#):
>
> Miami’s Haitians are particularly suspicious about the way their voting rights are regarded compared with those of the Cuban Republicans living in Little Havana. They are convinced that the Cubans are furiously registering non-citizens and filling in absentee ballots for dead people, and are being allowed to get away with it. The fear among the Haitians, meanwhile, is that if they break the rules in similar ways, they will be caught and punished.
> 
> Some of their suspicions are no doubt well grounded. There is a long history of voter fraud in Miami, especially among the Cubans. A Cuban exile columnist reported recently that absentee ballots were being sold on Calle Ocho in Miami for $25 a pop.
> 
> […]
> 
> n Little Haiti, vote organiser Carline Paul explained how the system might work now. “There is a bar code on the absentee ballot that can be checked against the registration application. So they can make sure a voter is registered. But they can’t check whether he or she is dead. All the Cubans need to do is to sign up everyone over 70, whether they are in a nursing home or in the next world, and they can steal this election.”

And finally:

> [@](#):
>
> The mess that is Florida nevertheless came as a profound shock to a group of international election monitors who toured the state last week. Dr Brigalia Bam, who chairs South Africa’s Independent Electoral Commission, was stunned by the patchwork of jurisdictions, rules and anomalies.
> 
> “Absolutely everything is a violation,” she said. “All these different systems in different counties with no accountability… It’s like the poorest village in Africa.”

Note that while in this instance Republicans and their supporters seem to be engaged in more than their share of questionable practices, there are a fair number of Democrats doing so as well. It’s a sad day for democracy.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\
**Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-name-any-defensible-legitimate-value-to-voter-suppression/268283/27 "2004-10-10T18:47:38Z")

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> [@Gyrate](#):
>
> Note that while in this instance Republicans and their supporters seem to be engaged in more than their share of questionable practices, there are a fair number of Democrats doing so as well. It’s a sad day for democracy.

True dat! ☹

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\
**Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-name-any-defensible-legitimate-value-to-voter-suppression/268283/28 "2004-10-11T01:26:16Z")

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> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> I’m still waiting for your cite, **Brutus.** The abuses you describe – the same person voting more than once, casting votes on behalf of dead people, etc. – are things I’ve heard of, but they date from the long-gone days of urban machine politics. Can you cite any proven instance from the past 10 or 20 years?

No cites, but I’ve heard people brag about voting twice by being registered in both Maryland and Washington, D.C.

There are continuing problems with party activists who troll nursing homes for votes. They send in an application for an absentee ballot for a resident, and then fill out the ballot themselves.

Electoral fraud is alive and well in the United States. The Democratic Party is its main beneficiary. When Republicans try to do something about it, they are immediately smeared as being racists.

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**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\
**Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-name-any-defensible-legitimate-value-to-voter-suppression/268283/29 "2004-10-11T01:36:36Z")

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> [@mks57](#):
>
> No cites, but I’ve heard people brag about voting twice by being registered in both Maryland and Washington, D.C.

I’ve heard about some rich New Yorkers who have vacation homes in Florida being registered to vote in both states – which does not necessarily mean they vote twice in the same election; they might just vote in whatever state they happen to be in on election day. Still illegal, but less egregious than what you’re describing. I doubt many people actually maintain residences in both D.C. and Maryland – which means they’re falsifying their registration in at least one jurisdiction.

> [@mks57](#):
>
> Electoral fraud is alive and well in the United States. The Democratic Party is its main beneficiary.

For **that,** I want a cite! Come on!

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\
**Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-name-any-defensible-legitimate-value-to-voter-suppression/268283/30 "2004-10-11T02:15:03Z")

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> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#):
>
> Because it slows down the voting process, and leads to longer lines outside the polling place. And that will cause some people who see a long line for voting to turn around and leave without voting.

In my experience in the UK, voting cards speed up the voting process, rather than slow it down. Each registered voter gets a voting card a couple of weeks before the election - and you can vote if you present this and a photo-id at the polling station [for people who don’t drive, photo ID cards are supplied free on application]

Having looked at that ballot paper linked to on this thread, I’m glad we still vote the old-fashioned way - putting an X with indelible pencil at the name of the person we want - or, in local elections where the PR system is used, numbering the candidates we like in order of preference. No machines, no ambiguity.

I don’t understand why ex-felons, or even current felons are excluded from voting - surely they are still American citizens and still have a say in their choice of government. I also don’t understand why you have to register as a voter for a particular party.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\
**Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-name-any-defensible-legitimate-value-to-voter-suppression/268283/31 "2004-10-11T02:26:50Z")

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> [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](#):
>
> I don’t understand why ex-felons, or even current felons are excluded from voting - surely they are still American citizens and still have a say in their choice of government. I also don’t understand why you have to register as a voter for a particular party.

You mean, in Britain felons are allowed to vote even while incarcerated?

We use party registration to facilitate the primary system. Some states are “open-primary,” meaning you can vote in the Democratic or Republican primary if you wish (but not both), but most are “closed-primary,” meaning you can vote in the Democratic primary only if you’re a registered Democrat.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\
**Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-name-any-defensible-legitimate-value-to-voter-suppression/268283/32 "2004-10-11T03:31:34Z")

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> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> You mean, in Britain felons are allowed to vote even while incarcerated?

Depends if they’ve been convicted or not - according to  
[http://www.electoralcommission.gov.uk/files/dms/Whocanvote\_14157-6144\_\_E\_\_N\_\_S\_\_W\_\_.pdf](http://www.electoralcommission.gov.uk/files/dms/Whocanvote_14157-6144 __E__ N __S__ W__.pdf)

you can’t vote if you’re

> [@](#):
>
> convicted persons detained in pursuance of their sentences (though remand prisoners, unconvicted prisoners and civil prisoners in default of fine or breach of recognisances can vote if they are on the electoral register);

Once these people are released there is nothing to stop them voting.

> [@](#):
>
> We use party registration to facilitate the primary system. Some states are “open-primary,” meaning you can vote in the Democratic or Republican primary if you wish (but not both), but most are “closed-primary,” meaning you can vote in the Democratic primary only if you’re a registered Democrat.

That’s probably why I didn’t understand it, as the prime minister here isn’t voted for directly - he’s the leader of the winning party.

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**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\
**Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-name-any-defensible-legitimate-value-to-voter-suppression/268283/33 "2004-10-11T16:58:39Z")

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> [@Brutus](#):
>
> The bolded bit above is what many Republicans are concerned with, and it only in line with that concern that I have seen any sort of electoral issues raised by Republicans.
> 
> You see, there have been a wide range of dirty tricks employed (mostly) by Democrats in many elections, and the impending one, transparently designed to “steal elections” – that is, paying the homeless to vote, voting on behalf of dead people, voting a few times (Vote early, vote often?), getting illegal immigrants to vote, et cetera.

Wow - I agree with Brutus :eek:

I think the only valid reasons to supress voting are:

1. To uphold the law. Felons in most states can’t vote, so keeping them off voting registers is fair.
2. To prevent fraud. Someone who fraudulently votes, or conspires to get others to do so should never ever be allowed to vote again.

I also agree that this should include bogus get out the vote campaigns that are purely partisans, but that’s just my own little opinion. That’s the only reason I don’t support ‘Rock the Vote’ and such - it’s pandering to one side of the political spectrum. I don’t think _ **either** _ side should be allowed to get away with this crap, and neither side is anything close to clean on it.

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**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\
**Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-name-any-defensible-legitimate-value-to-voter-suppression/268283/34 "2004-10-11T17:20:41Z")

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> [@GomiBoy](#):
>
> I think the only valid reasons to supress voting are:
> 
> 1. To uphold the law. Felons in most states can’t vote, so keeping them off voting registers is fair.
> 2. To prevent fraud. Someone who fraudulently votes, or conspires to get others to do so should never ever be allowed to vote again.

But this thread is about – and only about – the suppression of **legally eligible** voters, **Gomi.** Is that ever a good thing? That’s the question.

> [@GomiBoy](#):
>
> I also agree that this should include bogus get out the vote campaigns that are purely partisans, but that’s just my own little opinion. That’s the only reason I don’t support ‘Rock the Vote’ and such - it’s pandering to one side of the political spectrum. I don’t think _ **either** _ side should be allowed to get away with this crap, and neither side is anything close to clean on it.

**Now** we’re getting somewhere! What is wrong, exactly, with partisan get-out-the-vote drives? My thesis is that, for the sake of democratic government as an end-in-itself, **anything** which encourages turnout of (legally eligible) voters is good, and **anything** which discourages turnout of (legally eligible) voters is bad, no matter who is doing it or why. What about that proposition do you dispute?

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**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\
**Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-name-any-defensible-legitimate-value-to-voter-suppression/268283/35 "2004-10-11T17:53:55Z")

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> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> But nobody – yet – has actually argued for any positive value in voter-suppression tactics, nor that such are “fair play” in any sense.

In these difficult economic times, no one suffers more than the poor brute squad goon. His glory days from union busting are long past. He depends on the money he receives during election cycles to feed and clothe his family. Little Johnny wants a 2x4 for Christmas, but unless daddy can crack the heads of eligible voters, Little Johnny’s stocking will be empty this year.

Please, won’t someone think of the brute squad goons?

😉😛

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\
**Post date:** [October 12, 2004, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-name-any-defensible-legitimate-value-to-voter-suppression/268283/36 "2004-10-12T01:06:13Z")

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> [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](#):
>
> I don’t understand why ex-felons, or even current felons are excluded from voting - surely they are still American citizens and still have a say in their choice of government. I also don’t understand why you have to register as a voter for a particular party.

If there hasn’t already been a thread on this topic, there should be. Felony disenfranchisement laws date from the post-civil war period, when Southern states were looking for legal ways to disenfranchise ex-slaves after the Constitution was amended to give them the vote. Others ways were declared unconstitutional, but permanently disenfranchising felons was allowed. It didn’t solely apply to blacks, but it has affected minorities disproportionately.

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**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\
**Post date:** [October 12, 2004, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-name-any-defensible-legitimate-value-to-voter-suppression/268283/37 "2004-10-12T02:02:56Z")

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> [@chula](#):
>
> If there hasn’t already been a thread on this topic, there should be.

There have been, several. Felon disenfranchisement was heavily debated a couple of months ago when Florida was planning to use a new “felons list” (ultimately scrapped) to purge the voter rolls.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\
**Post date:** [October 12, 2004, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-name-any-defensible-legitimate-value-to-voter-suppression/268283/38 "2004-10-12T02:17:13Z")

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> [@chula](#):
>
> If there hasn’t already been a thread on this topic, there should be.

ISTM nearly a catch-22. Politicians cater to interests in search of votes; they don’t cater to felons because felons can’t vote.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\
**Post date:** [October 12, 2004, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-name-any-defensible-legitimate-value-to-voter-suppression/268283/39 "2004-10-12T02:25:59Z")

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> [@furt](#):
>
> ISTM nearly a catch-22. Politicians cater to interests in search of votes; they don’t cater to felons because felons can’t vote.

But any politician who proposed to enfranchise felons could hope, if he/she succeeds, to pick up the “felon vote.” Which might or might not amount to more votes than those the politician would lose from people who don’t like the idea. Still, it’s the right thing to do, if that counts for anything.

But let’s get this thread back on track.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\
**Post date:** [October 12, 2004, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-name-any-defensible-legitimate-value-to-voter-suppression/268283/40 "2004-10-12T02:29:56Z")

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> [@Dewey Cheatem Undhow](#):
>
> In these difficult economic times, no one suffers more than the poor brute squad goon. His glory days from union busting are long past. He depends on the money he receives during election cycles to feed and clothe his family. Little Johnny wants a 2x4 for Christmas, but unless daddy can crack the heads of eligible voters, Little Johnny’s stocking will be empty this year.
> 
> Please, won’t someone think of the brute squad goons?
> 
> 😉😛

There, there, **Dewey.** Chin up. The brute squad goons will be taken care of. After the Revolution, we’ll find them jobs as guards in the Reeducation Camps, and bouncers in the newly legalized hallucinogenic-drugs-and-bisexual-orgies bars! 🙂

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