# Can anyone tell me what is depicted in this picture? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 6, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-tell-me-what-is-depicted-in-this-picture/591783 "2011-08-06T23:23:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-tell-me-what-is-depicted-in-this-picture/591783/41 "2011-08-07T14:24:46Z")
[art historian] I agree that this is a 19th or early 20th-c litho illustration, of some Dominicans surrounding a recently dead guy. Probably just an illustration from a novel in which this is a plot point, rather than any old school popular Dominican story/topic [/art historian] ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-tell-me-what-is-depicted-in-this-picture/591783/42 "2011-08-07T14:24:55Z")
> [@APB](#): > > …One possible subject could be St Dominic’s resurrection of Napoleone Orsini. Which is an extremely rare subject in art. Especially as this version seems to show the discovery of the body rather than the miracle of the resurrection. However, compare Lorenzo Lotto’s much earlier [painting on the subject](http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lorenzo_Lotto_-_St_Dominic_Raises_Napoleone_Orsini_-_WGA13669.jpg). There are a bunch of pictures I saw while searching around that have the basic elements of nuns/monks/people wailing or praying over a fallen figure. This doesn’t look more similar to the OP pic than most of those others. So, do people think the figure is on a road, or in a field? I first thought “road” but it’s looking now more like just a dirt path or a bare patch of ground in a field. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-tell-me-what-is-depicted-in-this-picture/591783/43 "2011-08-07T14:28:10Z")
> [@capybara](#): > > [art historian] I agree that this is a 19th or early 20th-c litho illustration, of some Dominicans surrounding a recently dead guy. Probably just an illustration from a novel in which this is a plot point, rather than any old school popular Dominican story/topic [/art historian] What makes you think it’s that recent, rather than 17th or 18th century origins? ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-tell-me-what-is-depicted-in-this-picture/591783/44 "2011-08-07T15:21:49Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > What makes you think it’s that recent, rather than 17th or 18th century origins? 1. Medium/technique: eyeballing it, it’s almost certainly a lithograph; 2) stylistically. Has a 19th-c Pre-Raphaelitey stylistic vibe. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-tell-me-what-is-depicted-in-this-picture/591783/45 "2011-08-07T15:29:18Z")
> [@capybara](#): > > [art historian] Probably just an illustration from a novel in which this is a plot point, Was [Father Dowling Mysteries](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Dowling_Mysteries) based on a book? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-tell-me-what-is-depicted-in-this-picture/591783/46 "2011-08-07T16:45:49Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > 19th century. Time depicted is 19th century. Definitely not (although the illustration might date from then). No one would be using a sword as a weapon of choice in the 19th Century, and the fallen figure’s clothing doesn’t look right either. > [@](#): > > I don’t even see a tonsure. On anyone? The tonsure could not be more obvious on the rightmost figure, and the one second from the right and the two in the background are also tonsured. > [@](#): > > Boots, sword do not a saint make (at least in recent centuries). They would pretty much rule out the fallen figure being a member of one of the mendicant orders like Dominicans or Franciscans, who would generally wear sandals. By his clothing, he’s pretty obviously not a member of any religious order. > [@](#): > > The tall man clearly is a close witness and arbitrator, unlike the two women in the back. By their black and white robes and tonsures, the two figures in the back are also Dominican friars, not women. In fact, everyone in the picture except the fallen figure is a Dominican. However, I don’t believe they include St. Dominic, who died at the age of 51; the figure checking the heartbeat of the fallen figure is too old. The central figure is perhaps that old, but if it were a depiction of a miracle I would expect his face to be shown better. While **APB’s** suggestion of the resurrection of Napoleon Orsini is very interesting, the rural setting and lack of other figures doesn’t fit. The depiction of the specific habit of the Dominicans and a rosary rules out a scene from the Old Testament or for that matter earlier than the founding of that order. While artists sometimes included anachonisms in their illustrations, and might show contemporary fashions on historical figures, there would be no reason to include such specific clothing from an order that any artist would be aware was founded much later. (However, there are some depictions of contemporary figures at the Crucifixion or with saints, but these are clearly not intended to be realistic.) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-tell-me-what-is-depicted-in-this-picture/591783/47 "2011-08-08T13:38:23Z")
> [@Fourtyfold](#): > > Looks to me like a litho plate from a book, late 19th/early 20th c at a wild guess. So the scene being shown could be just about anything, fact, fable or fiction. > [@capybara](#): > > [art historian] I agree that this is a 19th or early 20th-c litho illustration, of some Dominicans surrounding a recently dead guy. Probably just an illustration from a novel in which this is a plot point, rather than any old school popular Dominican story/topic [/art historian] This. It could be an illustration from a pulp novella about Zorro, for all we know(well, no, there’d be a Z on the chest, but you get my drift). Definitely 19th/20th from style alone. If this were Christion iconography, it’s from from some mass-produced lives-of-the-saints thingummy, although I’d actually expect some halos or other symbolism (see e.g. APB’s link). Looks much, much more like a story illustration. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-tell-me-what-is-depicted-in-this-picture/591783/48 "2011-08-08T15:58:06Z")
Am I the only one who sees the weapon on the ground as a knife and not a sword or lance? Not sure if that makes a difference, but it looks like the loser of a knife fight. I have no idea of the significance of it being a knife vs. a sword. ---
**Author:** ![11811](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/9d8465/32.png) [@11811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/11811)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-tell-me-what-is-depicted-in-this-picture/591783/49 "2011-08-08T16:32:06Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > \when was Saint Francis on the road?. Francis was more of a studio phenomenon, what with his stage fright and all the overdubs. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-tell-me-what-is-depicted-in-this-picture/591783/50 "2011-08-08T16:35:36Z")
Doesn’t tearing a picture out of a book and framing it seem like an odd thing to do? Not impossible, obviously, but why would someone do that? If it is from a book, someone apparently thought it depicted something important enough (at least to them) to merit mutilating a book in order to be able to hang it on a wall. And why did they doodle on the back first? Maybe it was a childs story book and they liked to doodle on the blank pages? ---
**Author:** ![11811](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/9d8465/32.png) [@11811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/11811)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-tell-me-what-is-depicted-in-this-picture/591783/51 "2011-08-08T16:54:57Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Doesn’t tearing a picture out of a book and framing it seem like an odd thing to do? Not impossible, obviously, but why would someone do that? If it is from a book, someone apparently thought it depicted something important enough (at least to them) to merit mutilating a book in order to be able to hang it on a wall. > > And why did they doodle on the back first? Maybe it was a childs story book and they liked to doodle on the blank pages? Not at all. Audubon’s “Elephant Book” (a large-format book of his illustrations) is/was frequently broken down into frameable pieces. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-tell-me-what-is-depicted-in-this-picture/591783/52 "2011-08-08T16:59:04Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > Am I the only one who sees the weapon on the ground as a knife and not a sword or lance? The only way it’s not a sword is if it’s a main gauche, an off-hand dagger paired with a rapier and used for parrying. I’ve not seen any with a cup-hilt guard like that, it’s usually more [triangular](http://www.weaponsemporium.com/WE-Main%20Gauche%20Taza%20SH2137N.jpg). The weapon in the picture looks like a cup hilt rapier of some sort. Based on the look of it, I’d say it’s a broken [smallsword](http://p2.la-img.com/858/18408/6221485_5_l.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-tell-me-what-is-depicted-in-this-picture/591783/53 "2011-08-08T17:08:06Z")
> [@11811](#): > > Not at all. Audubon’s “Elephant Book” (a large-format book of his illustrations) is/was frequently broken down into frameable pieces. But that was a book of illustrations so it makes sense that people would do that. It may even be what was intended by the publishers. Some people are suggesting that the picture in question is an illustration of a scene in a story. My point is that it seems unlikely, at least to me, that someone would tear out and frame a scene from a fictional story. It seems more likely that it illustrates something that had some historical or religious meaning to the person who tore it out (if, in fact, it was torn from a book). Obviously we know nothing about the motivations of the person. I’m just speculating as to what seems more likely. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-tell-me-what-is-depicted-in-this-picture/591783/54 "2011-08-08T20:11:15Z")
Often the lithos would be printed on separate sheets which were then pasted into pages left blank in the book. So removal wasn’t exactly a matter of tearing the book apart. It wouldn’t, in fact, surprise me for them to work loose if cheap paste was used. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-tell-me-what-is-depicted-in-this-picture/591783/55 "2011-08-08T22:55:45Z")
To the OP: How big is the picture? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-tell-me-what-is-depicted-in-this-picture/591783/56 "2011-08-08T23:21:08Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > They would pretty much rule out the fallen figure being a member of one of the mendicant orders like Dominicans or Franciscans, who would generally wear sandals. By his clothing, he’s pretty obviously not a member of any religious order. But the folks being called out as Dominicans don’t look like they’re wearing sandals, either. In fact, the one who looks as if he’s pondering whether the dead guy’s boots would fit him appears to be wearing saddle shoes. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-tell-me-what-is-depicted-in-this-picture/591783/57 "2011-08-09T15:28:21Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > But that was a book of illustrations so it makes sense that people would do that. It may even be what was intended by the publishers. > > Some people are suggesting that the picture in question is an illustration of a scene in a story. My point is that it seems unlikely, at least to me, that someone would tear out and frame a scene from a fictional story. It seems more likely that it illustrates something that had some historical or religious meaning to the person who tore it out (if, in fact, it was torn from a book). > > Obviously we know nothing about the motivations of the person. I’m just speculating as to what seems more likely. Well, all those illustrations in the book would have started as original artwork. This could be the work that was copied into the book. Hey Z, is the picture on smooth paper? Is it original or a print? ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-tell-me-what-is-depicted-in-this-picture/591783/58 "2011-08-09T16:54:13Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > The title of the work is “One More Highwayman Regrets His Decision to Ambush the Brothers Of Saint Norris.” I once saw a newspaper cartoon that depicted a monk/friar in a fighting stance, standing amidst a bunch of overturned and broken tables and chairs and unconscious bodies. The caption read, “After that night at the bar, no one ever again called Saint Francis a sissy.” > [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Might be a screwed-up version of a Biblical picture, though. > Artist that didn’t do his research. Heh. I haven’t seen the painting myself, but I read something once about a German artist’s depiction of the Last Supper, showing the table set with a large beer stein and a Black Forest ham. ---
**Author:** ![scratch1300](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@scratch1300](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch1300)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-tell-me-what-is-depicted-in-this-picture/591783/59 "2011-08-10T06:50:17Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > I once saw a newspaper cartoon that depicted a monk/friar in a fighting stance, standing amidst a bunch of overturned and broken tables and chairs and unconscious bodies. The caption read, “After that night at the bar, no one ever again called Saint Francis a sissy.” That one’s by Gary Larson. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-tell-me-what-is-depicted-in-this-picture/591783/60 "2011-08-10T09:12:04Z")
To tell if is actually taken from a book the size would help a lot but looking at the edges in the picture the top looks very rough - as though it has been removed from something. It does look to me like an illustration from a detective type story - possibly with the tall figure looking pensive as the detective. (The pose reminds me of some illustrations of Sherlock Holmes.) There are are a fair number of books with Dominican friars as detective but most are fairly recent and - to me - this does look late 19th century. I get the same pre-Raphaelitey feel as \*\*Capybara \*\*from the lighting and the general style. Anybody able to think of a book with a Dominican protagonist who, with a party of his fellow friars, comes across the body of a man, apparently dead from a sword thrust? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-tell-me-what-is-depicted-in-this-picture/591783.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anyone-tell-me-what-is-depicted-in-this-picture/591783.md?page=4)