# Can anything be done about obviously disinformational news outlets? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 20, 2020, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anything-be-done-about-obviously-disinformational-news-outlets/926048 "2020-11-20T15:12:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2021, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anything-be-done-about-obviously-disinformational-news-outlets/926048/161 "2021-06-01T13:33:04Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > And it strikes me as a not so coincidental event that these “millions” of people who believe the “exact opposite of reality” just happen to support the opposition candidate to the one you supported. Well, no, I don’t think that it was a coincidence at all. I think that them supporting a candidate who was full of lies and disinformation had quite a bit to do with the media that they chose to consume. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2021, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anything-be-done-about-obviously-disinformational-news-outlets/926048/162 "2021-06-01T13:33:38Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Under your theory, what is to stop Donald Trump III from buying social media monopolies like Facebook and banning users from saying that the 2020 election was fair and square because of his “fact check”? Nothing. But then when you’re talking about private companies regulating content on their platforms, it has little to do with actual “free speech” and everything to do with protecting the brand and the business. Allowing gross disinformation about vaccines or propaganda designed to incite violence and insurrection to circulate with no checks creates a toxic environment and drives away members, which then drives down the value of the platform. It’s the same reason this board is moderated - a toxic environment drives off useful content So if Donald Trump III wants to buy Facebook and turn it into a shithole Parler clone, there’s nothing stopping him other than the fact that he’d be throwing away billions of dollars doing so. > [@UltraVires](#): > > Lying and bullshitting have been a part of every campaign since the founding. They all do it! One guy promises to provide jobs, another guy tells his supporters their votes have been stolen and they need to stop the election from being certified - exactly the same! > [@](#): > > The solution to that is more speech. When you try to suppress it, people become more intransigent and think that you are hiding “the truth.” Ah, the “The best way to stop a bad guy with a lie is with a good guy with the truth” argument. Mind you, there’s a certain saying misattributed to Mark Twain about why that doesn’t work. It’s much the same reason that, despite all the good guys with guns, we still need a police force to stop the bad guys. One has only to consider the Gish Gallop to understand why a battle of truth vs lies is a deeply uneven match. > [@UltraVires](#): > > In addition to stifling the freedom of the press and speech, this argument boils down to an attack on representative democracy: People are just to damn stupid to filter their news articles to discern the truth and thus cannot be counted on to responsibly vote. People are collectively stupid indeed but there’s no solution to that _other than to take steps to fight against disinformation campaigns_. “Free speech” has always come with limits where it causes harm. But that’s not even what’s happening here. What you’re _really_ arguing against is **accountability**. One of the many narratives being pushed since January 6 is how _unfair_ it is to hold anyone accountable for their speech and actions that led to a violent insurrection. We’re told over and over that it’s “persecution” and “stifling free speech”, not because those arguments have any validity but because those promoting it appear to believe that they should be allowed to do whatever they want without consequence. The thin veneer of “Golly gosh, we’re just talking about _freedom_” they paste across it does not hold up to even light scrutiny. Also, given your current position are you sure you really want to bring up attacks on representative democracy? > [@UltraVires](#): > > And it strikes me as a not so coincidental event that these “millions” of people who believe the “exact opposite of reality” just happen to support the opposition candidate to the one you supported. You’re quite right - it’s not a coincidence. But it’s not about political partisanship, although I’ve found it quite common for those who will defend the actions of their “tribe” no matter how egregious their behavior to assume that I am just as tribal and partisan as they are. No, I’m on the side that doesn’t lie constantly. Why wouldn’t I be? I’m not a Democrat and I have a long list of criticisms of them (and I’m certainly not claiming they never lie). But they don’t engage in coordinated mass disinformation campaigns. They don’t have multiple major media outlets dedicated to promoting outright falsehood day after day, hour after hour. They don’t consort with foreign powers and their government-funded troll farms to foment dissent. They don’t actively encourage their supporters to commit violence and insurrection. Of course, it’s likely also a not-so-coincidental event that you’re actively defending the right to lie so vigorously. > [@](#): > > Nobody on your side could be so stupid, right? Again, I’m not sure how you’re using “my side”, although given that “my side” is “people who make the effort to stay grounded in reality” I’m going to assume the stupidity level is markedly lower overall. Everyone is capable of being fooled, and there are delusional idiots in every demographic, no matter how you slice it. And even level-headed people can get caught up in believing a powerful narrative they want to believe is true. But right now in America, only “one side” is being _willfully_ stupid about this stuff, and is encouraged to be so by all their information sources. Only one side is electing those promoting batshit insane theories to high office across the nation and sidelining the few remaining rational voices left. And only one side is claiming that “freedom” includes the right to destroy democracy. > [@UltraVires](#): > > That is exactly how repressive governments begin. I’m not suggesting that you want that, but you are buying into it. Remind me who is making the argument for private companies to be required to provide a platform for all users without restriction? Sounds pretty repressive to me. > [@UltraVires](#): > > We don’t let people in power define “truth” because that is always skewed to their own purposes. Perhaps you should direct that to the side that has literally spent years doing just that, to the point where (as noted) millions of people believe things that are the opposite of reality. Funny how you’re suddenly concerned about it right now, just as there’s starting to be some material pushback against it. Wonder if that’s a coincidence too? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2021, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anything-be-done-about-obviously-disinformational-news-outlets/926048/163 "2021-06-01T13:35:41Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Biden has “admitted” no such thing. > > He stated there was intelligence community disagreement on scenarios and ordered further investigation. > Scientists still heavily favor a jump from animal vector(s). Sure, but that’s _your_ version of “truth”. For other people, the “truth” is that it was a coordinated biological attack and also that it was a Democratic hoax and also that it’s basically just a common cold - you know, all three of those at once. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2021, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anything-be-done-about-obviously-disinformational-news-outlets/926048/164 "2021-06-01T13:44:46Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Well, no, I don’t think that it was a coincidence at all. I think that them supporting a candidate who was full of lies and disinformation had quite a bit to do with the media that they chose to consume. Exactly. That’s the whole problem and why I started the thread; the bullshit coming out of the right-wing media is, if not outright lies, so biased and slanted that it may as well be. It’s literally a separate set of facts, which means that the two sides aren’t even talking about the same issues anymore, and tend to talk past each other. And why is this? Because people are stupid? Partially. But I think it’s mostly because they’ve were gulled into believing that Fox News was more friendly to their point of view, and then in the years since then, they’ve been pulled more and more away from the informational center, to the point now that there’s not even agreement on things like elections, even when the _ **local Republican** _ officials certify it for the other party. Sticking with conspiracy theories over the truth and using the muscle of billion dollar media companies to broadcast it, because it’s _politically convenient?_ That’s a huge problem. That’s essentially generating alternate facts to support your political position. This is wholly different than having an ideological slant; having a slant assumes you’re interpreting the same facts in a different way. What’s going on now is generating your own “facts” to support your ideological position, which is what many of us are protesting here. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2021, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anything-be-done-about-obviously-disinformational-news-outlets/926048/165 "2021-06-01T13:51:24Z")
Well, the unifying theme for all of those scenarios is that you can’t believe trained and knowledgeable experts, and thus anything goes. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2021, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anything-be-done-about-obviously-disinformational-news-outlets/926048/166 "2021-06-01T18:49:43Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > The problem with the thread title and most of the responses is that the sentiment boils down to the idea that people are simply too stupid to look at all of the available information and discern the truth and/or the best working theory of what the truth is. Hi, welcome to the planet Earth in the year 2021. You’re clearly emerging from cryostasis for the past five years. While you’ve been asleep Donald Trump, a known conman, was elected president because millions of Americans were not able to see through his transparent lies. Many information outlets shared and defended his lies as truths (see facts, alternate). People believed this. Also, the world is currently undergoing a pandemic of a contagious and deadly disease. Of course, as you would expect people are acting responsibly by wearing masks, washing their hands and socially distancing. Oh no, wait, it is the opposite thing. In fact, the same people that believed Donald Trump’s lies are predominantly the same people who think that wearing a mask will make you sick from CO2 poisoning despite this being incredibly stupid. Also, the former president, did I mention it was the known conman Donald Trump, at one point suggested that the medical community investigate the possibility of injecting bleach. The immediate reaction from the right-wing media was to point out that this was absurd and people should not be taking medical advice from the president. Oh no, wait, that’s also not what happened. Oh also, hydroxychloroquine. And oh so much more (e.g. the election was stolen by voter fraud). So in short, people are stupid and have an extremely hard time distinguishing misinformation from information because of party politics, and the fact that right-wing media has gone completely off the rails into a world of pure delusion. If you wish to reactivate your cryostasis pod, this is highly recommended as the current era sucks. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2021, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anything-be-done-about-obviously-disinformational-news-outlets/926048/167 "2021-06-01T20:42:21Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > at one point suggested that the medical community investigate the possibility of injecting bleach. Nitpick: “disinfectant”, not bleach. Not that this is any less insane. > [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > the fact that right-wing media has gone completely off the rails into a world of pure delusion. _Come with me and you’ll be In a world of pure disinformation Take a look and you’ll see Way too much disinformation We’ll begin with a spin Travelling in the world of my creation What we’ll see will defy explanation…_ ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2021, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anything-be-done-about-obviously-disinformational-news-outlets/926048/168 "2021-06-01T21:35:56Z")
Quite right. I misremembered the quote. The sign behind him said “bleach and isopropyl alcohol”. What is so incredibly sad if you know that he said it because he saw it on the sign. But this shouldn’t be about whether Donald Trump is an idiot (he is) or a bad president (he was), but about whether people are stupid (they are) and whether blatant misinformation is causing considerable damage to people directly and society as a whole (it is). Free speech is absolute fantastic, but it cannot have zero limits. People who intentionally spread blatant lies should face the consequences for that, which at a minimum, the barest barest barest barest minimum should be to be de-platformed so that at least the damage they cause is minimized. > **[Coronavirus: Outcry after Trump suggests injecting disinfectant as treatment](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52407177)** > > Doctors call the president's latest remarks about coronavirus treatment "dangerous" and "ridiculous". ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2021, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anything-be-done-about-obviously-disinformational-news-outlets/926048/169 "2021-06-01T22:17:03Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > The problem with the thread title and most of the responses is that the sentiment boils down to the idea that people are simply too stupid to look at all of the available information and discern the truth and/or the best working theory of what the truth is. Roughly half of the people have IQ’s under 100, and if you have ever met a IQ 100 person, you know how stupid they are. The average American reads one book a year, and since I, alone, read about 100, that means there are many Americans who never crack a book after school. I have heard complaints from people not liking closed captioning as “it confuses them”. "_nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public"_ > [@UltraVires](#): > > Quasi-monopoly companies like Facebook look to government to determine what are the proper subjects of discussion and adjust their policies based on what the government says. And this doesn’t frighten anyone? No, it does not frighten me, what frightens me is the lies being posted on Facebook. Go to Politifact some day- no less than 23 out and out lies shared on Social media on just the first two pages, such crap like- [Biden agrees to Pelosi’s request to resign.”](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/may/26/facebook-posts/joe-biden-isnt-resigning-and-nancy-pelosi-didnt-as/) [“Boom! Georgia 1st to decertify election.”](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/may/27/facebook-posts/claim-georgia-decertified-election-pants-fire-fals/) [You can’t donate plasma after getting a COVID-19 vaccine.](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/may/28/instagram-posts/covid-19-vaccine-recipients-can-donate-plasma/) [Says Luc Montagnier said, “There is no hope and no possible treatment for those who have been vaccinated already. We must be prepared to incinerate the bodies.”](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/may/28/viral-image/no-french-virologist-luc-montagnier-didnt-say-covi/) Most of the lies are about the Covid vaccine, spread by the far right in their continued war against medical science. These lies are not harmless, they are causing many people to balk at getting the vaccine. That is killing Americans. > **[KFF COVID-19 Vaccine Monitor Dashboard | KFF](https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/dashboard/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-dashboard/?gclid=CjwKCAjwtdeFBhBAEiwAKOIy54tPd3tBMrgCjJP51Y623XjFG_yU8nUgeqxuY8mRTaJXh-C-E2G3FRoChy8QAvD_BwE)** > > Using a combination of surveys and focus groups, the KFF COVID-19 Vaccine Monitor will track the dynamic nature of public reactions as vaccine development unfolds, including vaccine confidence and hesitancy, trusted messengers and messages, as well... 13% of Americans- 27% of Republicans are refusing the get the vaccines. Maybe more. > **[1 in 5 Americans say they won't get COVID-19 vaccine](https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/1-5-americans-say-they-wont-get-covid-19-vaccine)** _# 1 in 5 Americans say they won’t get COVID-19 vaccine_ Now this is not just killing these future darwin award recipients, but it is endangering their families. And since the virus continues to mutate- **these stupid fucking pointless lies are endangering us all.** There is a pandemic going on, people who formulate and spread these lies are committing murder as sure as if they were pulling the trigger in a mass shooting. Yes, **we have the right to stop murderers.** ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2021, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anything-be-done-about-obviously-disinformational-news-outlets/926048/170 "2021-06-01T22:58:04Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > The problem with the thread title and most of the responses is that the sentiment boils down to the idea that people are simply too stupid to look at all of the available information and discern the truth and/or the best working theory of what the truth is. At its core, it is an attack on the idea of a free press in general. I disagree. For the most part, I give the people who believe in misinformation credit for their intelligence. The problem is in their values. Take the people who think Trump won the 2020 election and the news outlets that report this to be the case. I think most of the believers in this theory do so because realize their values, and their idea of what America is and who real Americans are, are no longer in the majority. Rather than admit this, they prefer to try to impose their values on the country by undemocratic means. Sure, there’s probably a few true believers, but I bet in their heart of hearts, most of them know they are lying to themselves and that the reason for doing so is because they are in denial that their version of morality can no longer be imposed on others at the ballot box. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anything-be-done-about-obviously-disinformational-news-outlets/926048/171 "2021-06-02T03:53:21Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > That is exactly how repressive governments begin. I’m not suggesting that you want that, but you are buying into it. That is why freedom of speech and the press are so precious and inviolate. We don’t let people in power define “truth” because that is always skewed to their own purposes. Firstly, courts already have to rule on such matters. Look at the election fraud claims. Part of the claims originally were specifically against the Dominion voting machines. However, Dominion sued, FOX et al had to pay out and put on special programs “clarifying” that Dominion had nothing to do with any fraud. (OK, those programs were extremely dry, and brief, however, the more important effect is that any mention of Dominion by guests on FOX very quickly gets shut down). All I’ve wished for is a world where people would be as hesitant about making shit up in general as they are about making stuff up about Disney, say. That the general public is not misled about important topics like covid is far more important than Dominion’s reputation. Secondly, I’d also be fine with regulations that just require certain kinds of disclaimer. Like “I am about to discuss a public health emergency, but I am not a doctor, or epidemiologist, and the following information is pure opinion” _then_ Hannity gets to say whatever stupid shit his brain pinched out. It wouldn’t be perfect, but it would be a start. So I am not suggesting that anyone be silenced. But there can be consequences for just making stuff up with no data at all, and/or viewers should be reminded that what they’re watching isn’t actual news. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-anything-be-done-about-obviously-disinformational-news-outlets/926048.md?page=8)