# Can atheists provide rational arguments that terrorists should spare their lives? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 14, 2014, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-atheists-provide-rational-arguments-that-terrorists-should-spare-their-lives/678773 "2014-01-14T09:37:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-atheists-provide-rational-arguments-that-terrorists-should-spare-their-lives/678773/21 "2014-01-14T11:53:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Actually ants and chimps do too. Completely fair point, respectfully withdrawn and revised to: “Most” animals don’t engage in this sort of behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-atheists-provide-rational-arguments-that-terrorists-should-spare-their-lives/678773/22 "2014-01-14T11:57:02Z")
> [@Laowai](#): > > True, but human beings are the only _intelligent_ species on the planet that do it. I’m not sure how intelligent it is to destroy millions of our own due to territorial pissing contests (that could easily be resolved by peaceful coexistence), differences of political opinion, the color of skin, or the delusion that the invisible man wants more blood for the blood god, and more skulls for the skull throne. ---
**Author:** ![Laowai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4491bb/32.png) [@Laowai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laowai)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-atheists-provide-rational-arguments-that-terrorists-should-spare-their-lives/678773/23 "2014-01-14T11:57:04Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > The government structures in these countries despise free speech, free press, people’s right to bear arms. Mind you, as an Englishman, I’ve heard my own country criticised for much the same reasons given our gun laws and media fairness laws. I’ve not killed anyone recently. We’re still dealing with a minority here. > [@watchwolf49](#): > > The West (or specifically, the USA) has caused pain and suffering in the Middle East, simply study Iran’s history during the 20th century. But, hell’s bells, put yourself in the position of being a woman in Saudi Arabia, especially when you’re filling your gas tank. Agreed. I truly wish we could consider the beam in our eye on this one. > [@watchwolf49](#): > > There’s nothing Muslim about terrorism, it’s just cold blooded murder (terrorism that is). Atheists, Women, Sunni’s, Kurds, Jews … I’m sorry, the answer to the OP is there’s nothing anyone can say to spare their lives … these bozo’s kill just for the fun of it. Agreed, bar the last part given there’s little fun in dying, (as many of these terrorists do in the very perpetration of their acts). They believe in the justice of their cause and the means. ---
**Author:** ![Laowai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4491bb/32.png) [@Laowai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laowai)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-atheists-provide-rational-arguments-that-terrorists-should-spare-their-lives/678773/24 "2014-01-14T11:58:53Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > I’m not sure how intelligent it is to destroy millions of our own due to territorial pissing contests (that could easily be resolved by peaceful coexistence), differences of political opinion, the color of skin, or the delusion that the invisible man wants more blood for the blood god, and more skulls for the skull throne. Ah, that’s why I said ‘intelligent species’ rather than ‘wise’. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-atheists-provide-rational-arguments-that-terrorists-should-spare-their-lives/678773/25 "2014-01-14T12:06:58Z")
Some Doper (can’t remember who) put it this way: If you need some book or some clerical figure to tell you that murder is wrong – if you can’t figure this out for yourself – then you have major problems. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-atheists-provide-rational-arguments-that-terrorists-should-spare-their-lives/678773/26 "2014-01-14T12:07:26Z")
> [@Laowai](#): > > Ah, that’s why I said ‘intelligent species’ rather than ‘wise’. Well, we do refer to ourselves as\* homo sapiens sapiens.\* We’re obviously so wise that we had to remind ourselves to be wise by saying it twice, and not only that, it didn’t even sink in on the second try. Perhaps a third? Hey, we told ourselves that we shouldn’t murder, and wrote it down on tablets and books and so forth and distributed that all over the world, and a bloody lot of good that did. Emphasis on bloody. ---
**Author:** ![Laowai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4491bb/32.png) [@Laowai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laowai)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-atheists-provide-rational-arguments-that-terrorists-should-spare-their-lives/678773/27 "2014-01-14T12:10:53Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > Well, we do refer to ourselves as\* homo sapiens sapiens.\* We’re obviously so wise that we had to remind ourselves to be wise by saying it twice, and not only that, it didn’t even sink in on the second try. Perhaps a third? > > Hey, we told ourselves that we shouldn’t murder, and wrote it down on tablets and books and so forth and distributed that all over the world, and a bloody lot of good that did. Emphasis on bloody. In a way, you’ve summarised the issue with the original post. “Thou shalt not kill.” Yep, fair enough, we all got that. Then religious turned that into “Thou shalt not kill, _because_…” That’s when the arguments started. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-atheists-provide-rational-arguments-that-terrorists-should-spare-their-lives/678773/28 "2014-01-14T12:21:32Z")
> [@Laowai](#): > > Mind you, as an Englishman, I’ve heard my own country criticised for much the same reasons given our gun laws and media fairness laws. I’ve not killed anyone recently. Well, give it [del]time[/del] a handy, resource-rich landmass without a flag… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Laowai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4491bb/32.png) [@Laowai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laowai)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-atheists-provide-rational-arguments-that-terrorists-should-spare-their-lives/678773/29 "2014-01-14T12:43:21Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Well, give it [del]time[/del] a handy, resource-rich landmass without a flag… 😃 Ah, I did say ‘recently’. We Brits used to be pretty good at it, but we kind of lost the knack back there somewhere. As I recall, Jesus approved of what we were doing at the time. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-atheists-provide-rational-arguments-that-terrorists-should-spare-their-lives/678773/30 "2014-01-14T13:45:18Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > Completely fair point, respectfully withdrawn and revised to: “Most” animals don’t engage in this sort of behavior. Ponderosa Pines kill their own babies, does that count? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-atheists-provide-rational-arguments-that-terrorists-should-spare-their-lives/678773/31 "2014-01-14T13:47:00Z")
> [@PlaceboTarget](#): > > From an atheist point of view, human life does not have an absolute meaning or value. Where did you get this idea? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-atheists-provide-rational-arguments-that-terrorists-should-spare-their-lives/678773/32 "2014-01-14T13:51:30Z")
> [@PlaceboTarget](#): > > No, they’re not, the argument went on. Atheists insist that any system of value is relative and the society cannot impose any values on the individual. To an atheist, any value is purely subjective. From an atheist point of view, human life does not have an absolute meaning or value. There are even atheists who contest the superiority of human life over other forms of life, or the superiority of human intelligence over other forms of intelligence. Some even claim that people do no make conscious choices and there is no actual “I” in any person. Therefore, killing an atheist would not be worse than killing a bug, from the perspective of the atheist himself. Where did you get this crap? I must insist on a cite for this load of lunacy. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-atheists-provide-rational-arguments-that-terrorists-should-spare-their-lives/678773/33 "2014-01-14T13:53:53Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Where did you get this idea? Probably from the common idea that so-called absolute morality supposedly comes from God, therefore anyone who doesn’t believe in God _has_ to be an extreme moral relativist. Of course in reality the believers are if anything _more_ into “moral relativism”, since they base their morality on an imaginary god that being imaginary naturally decrees an “absolute morality” that _just happens_ to perfectly match that of the person who declares what God’s “absolute morality” is. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-atheists-provide-rational-arguments-that-terrorists-should-spare-their-lives/678773/34 "2014-01-14T14:08:02Z")
My view is that if you demand I come up with a rational reason you shouldn’t kill me - because you can’t think of one - you are some kind of psychopath or homicidal maniac. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-atheists-provide-rational-arguments-that-terrorists-should-spare-their-lives/678773/35 "2014-01-14T14:53:35Z")
> [@PlaceboTarget](#): > > No, they’re not, the argument went on. Atheists insist that any system of value is relative and the society cannot impose any values on the individual. To an atheist, any value is purely subjective. From an atheist point of view, human life does not have an absolute meaning or value. There are even atheists who contest the superiority of human life over other forms of life, or the superiority of human intelligence over other forms of intelligence. Some even claim that people do no make conscious choices and there is no actual “I” in any person. Therefore, killing an atheist would not be worse than killing a bug, from the perspective of the atheist himself. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Where did you get this crap? I must insist on a cite for this load of lunacy. According to the OP it is a view held by a sizeable part of Middle-Eastern Muslims. Which I readily believe to be the case. Again there is a bit of a bait and switch here. What you could counter with is that the atheists doesn’t hold himself to the lowly level of a bug but the opposite: He holds the bug to a higher level, closer towards the high level he holds his own in. Of course the bug is a good example, because I swat mosquito’s as readily as a Muslim swats any of Allah’s creations. Anyway, the atheists clearly holds ‘creation’ in a higher regard than the believer. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-atheists-provide-rational-arguments-that-terrorists-should-spare-their-lives/678773/36 "2014-01-14T15:21:18Z")
> [@PlaceboTarget](#): > > And thus we get back to the essential question: Can atheists provide any rational arguments that taking their lives is wrong? Theists believe in an afterlife. Atheists believe that this one life is all we get. Therefore, life is more precious to an atheist than it is to a theist. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-atheists-provide-rational-arguments-that-terrorists-should-spare-their-lives/678773/37 "2014-01-14T15:22:00Z")
Oh, wait a minute Mr. Terrorist: Before you set off that bomb, can we have a philosophical discussion about my atheist moral values? I think you will be fascinated to learn that… **KA-BOOM!!!** ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-atheists-provide-rational-arguments-that-terrorists-should-spare-their-lives/678773/38 "2014-01-14T15:31:23Z")
> [@PlaceboTarget](#): > > Atheist axiology does tend to be relative, rather than absolute. I don’t contest the fact that atheists have values and they want to minimize pain and suffering. I would only like to know the rationale behind this stance. I thought it was your Muslim acquaintances that were making these baseless assumptions about atheists? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-atheists-provide-rational-arguments-that-terrorists-should-spare-their-lives/678773/39 "2014-01-14T15:37:01Z")
It was fairly clear from the OP that those acquaintances were fictional. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-atheists-provide-rational-arguments-that-terrorists-should-spare-their-lives/678773/40 "2014-01-14T15:41:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Of course in reality the believers are if anything _more_ into “moral relativism”, since they base their morality on an imaginary god that being imaginary naturally decrees an “absolute morality” that _just happens_ to perfectly match that of the person who declares what God’s “absolute morality” is. Sarcasm aside, I don’t see how even sincerity carries the day for 'em. I mean, even if for the sake of argument it’s someone who sincerely desires to carry out the will of God _because_ it’s the will of God – uh, okay: how’d they reach the conclusion that doing the will of God is commendable and praiseworthy? Deciding to reject _or follow_ a religion’s commands is a choice you have to make without recourse to the trump card of Do It Because God Says So; if opting out is a matter of subjective philosophy, then so is opting in. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-atheists-provide-rational-arguments-that-terrorists-should-spare-their-lives/678773.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-atheists-provide-rational-arguments-that-terrorists-should-spare-their-lives/678773.md?page=3)