# Can Big Brother, Handmaiden's Tale, Brave New World happen? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 5, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-big-brother-handmaidens-tale-brave-new-world-happen/662750 "2013-07-05T20:48:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-big-brother-handmaidens-tale-brave-new-world-happen/662750/101 "2013-07-08T02:33:09Z")
Exapno, it looks like you are REALLY depending on the BIG picture here. We are talking about specific societies. The U.S. isn’t the ‘overall world’. It is one nation. Nations do fall. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-big-brother-handmaidens-tale-brave-new-world-happen/662750/102 "2013-07-08T02:54:00Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Shrug. I’ve studied history and the idea of progress extensively. My considered opinion is that we live in a better world in virtually every way. We have far better medicine, unbelievably good social conditions, a decrease in poverty, and an average standard of living that we would have killed for when I was a kid, all without major warfare. This is true worldwide, with literally billions of people lifted out of poverty and nearly a billion entering the middle class, all in a world that was supposed to incapable of providing even minimal amounts of food to seven billion people. The world doesn’t need to be utopia. All that’s required is that it be measurably better than it used to be. That’s not what you said before, though: > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > People never change (people are always idiots), but the future always does, and always positively. The world could be better now than it ever was in the past without it being true that things _always_ change for the better. Studying history should have taught you that there are periods where things get a lot worse than they were before. For a European of the early 1300s, the future was the Black Death. That wasn’t a positive change for the people who experienced it. As for dystopian fiction, in both _The Hunger Games_ and _The Handmaid’s Tale_ the dystopian societies don’t last. The Panem government is overthrown in the last _Hunger Games_ book. In _Handmaid’s Tale_ the Republic of Gilead is still going strong at the end of the main narrative, but the framing device indicates that it has since fallen. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-big-brother-handmaidens-tale-brave-new-world-happen/662750/103 "2013-07-08T02:58:05Z")
The reality is, NONE of the visions of the future presented in ANY major dystopian movie or novel will ever come true. But hey, I’m not going to try to convince anyone that I’m right. I think it’s HILARIOUS that people like Der Trihs are wetting themselves in fear of a takeover by the Religious Right! Hell, as a religious conservative, I WISH my side had a tiny fraction of the power our enemies regularly assert we do! But even if we can’t enact our agenda, we can get some small enjoyment from watching pathetic wusses like Margaret Atwood squirm! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-big-brother-handmaidens-tale-brave-new-world-happen/662750/104 "2013-07-08T02:59:47Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > If I didn’t know you were serious, I’d say this is a brilliant example of dystopian fiction’s habit of going from A to C and skipping all of the “how” found in B. > > What does “ground down” mean? Ground down economically, mostly. Wages are stagnant and have been for decades. The rich’s share of American wealth is increasing and will likely continue to. The American dream of owning a house and a car and sending your kids to college to live better lives than you is dying on the vine because people can’t afford that any more. Hours go up for the employed, vacations shrink, and for the unemployed, there’s a perpetual scarciity of jobs. If it continues, thing will be as bad as I describe. > [@](#): > > What does “severe dislocations” mean? How will automation replace “skilled jobs”? Severe dislocations, you know … like the 2008 crash. Especially since, with no money coming in from increased production of goods and services, the tendency will be to let the financial markets continue to play the CDO lotto and whatever other gambling games they make up down the road. Expert systems will do more and more. No need to invoke artificial intelligence. A lot of the people sitting in cubicles are not doing anything that software can’t do a few generation down the road. > [@](#): > > What happens to all of the wealthy folks who are huge charitable givers in your scenario? Are they mutated into oligarchs by some kind of zombie-like pathogen? No, you don’t need EVERY member of an oligarchic class to behave like an oligarch in order for the class to function as an oligarchy. Historically, charitable giving has done very little to relieve the social problems they address, as their real function is to relieve the guilt of those members of the wealthy classes who have a conscience. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-big-brother-handmaidens-tale-brave-new-world-happen/662750/105 "2013-07-08T03:03:20Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > This is a good extrapolation of our times. It takes real issues and extends them along a line to a logical conclusion. > > But it’s a fictional extrapolation. It’s a perfect example of the hypertropism I mentioned. All forces work themselves out linearly without opposition forces working to limit the outcome. It’s like extrapolations about the Future in the 1980s that assumed Communism would survive or in the 1990s that didn’t foresee an Internet or in the 2000s that didn’t include an Arab Spring. The industrial jobs that powered the 20th century are not coming back but that doesn’t mean that nothing will replace them. The economy is already beginning to shift to accommodate. As I said before, we are not living in really bad times. The Good Old Days you seem to be saying we’ve left weren’t considered Good while people lived through them. The past always seemed better and straightline extrapolations of the present were always horrors. (I can point to a 1903 book that extrapolated that robots were going to take all the jobs.) People never change (people are always idiots), but the future always does, and always positively. It will happen to you whether you like it or not. I hope you are right and I am wrong. My main hope in preventing the outcomes I see is the growth of a strong progressive movement in America and maybe the development of an ethos of a strong safety net to prevent the worst excesses of the trends I see from harming too many people too greatly. I hope it will happen when the upper middle class starts being affected by these trends. But based on what I have seen in the past few years, I’m not terribly hopeful. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-big-brother-handmaidens-tale-brave-new-world-happen/662750/106 "2013-07-08T03:22:18Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > As for dystopian fiction, in both _The Hunger Games_ and _The Handmaid’s Tale_ the dystopian societies don’t last. The Panem government is overthrown in the last _Hunger Games_ book. I’m pretty sure I touched on The Hunger Games earlier in this thread, but it’s another great example. 21st century America -\> Nuclear War -\> “Invisible Hovercrafts With Force Fields and Laser Guns!!!” -\> Civil War -\> “Even More Invisible Hovercrafts With Force Fields and Laser Guns!!!” And “Everybody But A Select Few Live on Farms” ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-big-brother-handmaidens-tale-brave-new-world-happen/662750/107 "2013-07-08T05:35:08Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > But even if we can’t enact our agenda, we can get some small enjoyment from watching pathetic wusses like Margaret Atwood squirm! Talk about your delusions of grandeur. You honestly made me laugh out loud thinking about you believing this as you typed it. Oh man, good stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-big-brother-handmaidens-tale-brave-new-world-happen/662750/108 "2013-07-08T06:07:28Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > Mr. Huxley’s ground-breaking work,\* Brave New World\*, was largely a parody of H. G. Well’s _A Modern Utopia_ and is set in a future several hundreds of years from now. As such, the ideas set forth of control by pharmaceutical means seem less absurd than one might immediately think. Yes, modern society is revolted by eugenics… To a point: we’re revolted by the label and by the notion of government-ordered eugenics programs, but how many people will abort if told the fetus has Downs or have decided not to have children because they have inheritable diseases? That’s eugenics, but made by individual choice rather than by the government. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-big-brother-handmaidens-tale-brave-new-world-happen/662750/109 "2013-07-08T06:10:27Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > But even if we can’t enact our agenda, we can get some small enjoyment from watching pathetic wusses like Margaret Atwood squirm! I must admit I know very little about Margaret Atwood as an individual. Is she noted for being pathetic and cowardly in real life, or do you mean she’s a pathetic wuss because she wrote a novel? ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-big-brother-handmaidens-tale-brave-new-world-happen/662750/110 "2013-07-08T06:39:17Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I must admit I know very little about Margaret Atwood as an individual. Is she noted for being pathetic and cowardly in real life? Considering the fact that she has a fit every time someone refers to one of her books as science fiction, I’d say we have to at least consider it. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-big-brother-handmaidens-tale-brave-new-world-happen/662750/111 "2013-07-08T06:48:03Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Considering the fact that she has a fit every time someone refers to one of her books as science fiction, I’d say we have to at least consider it. Not wanting your work classified as science fiction = cowardly? How is that? Honest question. I kind of figured since science fiction is pretty synonymous with nerds maybe she wouldn’t want her work classified in that way. Authors can be odd birds but I have a hard time linking that with cowardly. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-big-brother-handmaidens-tale-brave-new-world-happen/662750/112 "2013-07-08T12:42:30Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > I kind of figured since science fiction is pretty synonymous with nerds maybe she wouldn’t want her work classified in that way. Authors can be odd birds but I have a hard time linking that with cowardly. It’s not cowardly, but it is a pretty serious slap in the face to someone who likes science fiction and also likes Margaret Atwood’s novels. Not to mention the fact that she’s wrong. Some of her works are clearly science fiction (such as The Handmaid’s Tale and Oryx and Crake). She can complain about it, but it only makes her sound like a whiner. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-big-brother-handmaidens-tale-brave-new-world-happen/662750/113 "2013-07-08T14:10:27Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > It’s not cowardly, but it is a pretty serious slap in the face to someone who likes science fiction and also likes Margaret Atwood’s novels. Not to mention the fact that she’s wrong. Some of her works are clearly science fiction (such as The Handmaid’s Tale and Oryx and Crake). She can complain about it, but it only makes her sound like a whiner. If it’s not cowardly then why did you bring it up? My question wasn’t whether Margaret Atwood is known for being condescending, a snob, or saying things some people didn’t like, my question was whether she was known for being pathetic and cowardly. This was in response to a poster who specifically referred to her as a “pathetic wuss”, and given the context I don’t think her views on science fiction were the issue. FWIW I am familiar with some of Atwood’s remarks about science fiction, and while I think she’s wrong about what the term “science fiction” means I do not feel slapped in the face by this. I’ve also never seen any quotes from her that I’d characterize as “throwing a fit” or “whining” about it. A quick Google indicates that she’s happy to admit that she uses the terms “science fiction” and “speculative fiction” differently than others do (see this [2005 piece in _The Guardian_](http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2005/jun/17/sciencefictionfantasyandhorror.margaretatwood)). ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-big-brother-handmaidens-tale-brave-new-world-happen/662750/114 "2013-07-08T14:12:07Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > It’s not cowardly, but it is a pretty serious slap in the face to someone who likes science fiction and also likes Margaret Atwood’s novels. Not to mention the fact that she’s wrong. Some of her works are clearly science fiction (such as The Handmaid’s Tale and Oryx and Crake). She can complain about it, but it only makes her sound like a whiner. It’s a “pretty serious slap in the face” to science fiction fans that she doesn’t consider her books science fiction? How very precious. You honestly can’t be serious. If that is true those folks are dainty lil flowers. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-big-brother-handmaidens-tale-brave-new-world-happen/662750/115 "2013-07-08T14:13:24Z")
Over 100 posts and no mention of Ira Levin’s [This Perfect Day](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Perfect_Day)? Yes, I could see that one happening. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-big-brother-handmaidens-tale-brave-new-world-happen/662750/116 "2013-07-08T14:26:44Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > If it’s not cowardly then why did you bring it up? My question wasn’t whether Margaret Atwood is known for being condescending, a snob, or saying things some people didn’t like, my question was whether she was known for being pathetic and cowardly. This was in response to a poster who specifically referred to her as a “pathetic wuss”, and given the context I don’t think her views on science fiction were the issue. > [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > It’s a “pretty serious slap in the face” to science fiction fans that she doesn’t consider her books science fiction? How very precious. You honestly can’t be serious. Christ, it was a joke made at the expense of an author with a ridiculous quirk. I’m sorry, OK. Are either of related to Margaret Atwood by any chance? ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-big-brother-handmaidens-tale-brave-new-world-happen/662750/117 "2013-07-08T14:34:53Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Christ, it was a joke made at the expense of an author with a ridiculous quirk. I’m sorry, OK. Are either of related to Margaret Atwood by any chance? So we’re going from the pearl clutching “serious slap in the face” to asking us if we’re related to Margaret Atwood because clarification was asked for? Nice deflection, but you were the one over the top not the other way around. Regardless, this little hijack is getting us nowhere. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-big-brother-handmaidens-tale-brave-new-world-happen/662750/118 "2013-07-08T14:48:38Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > So we’re going from the pearl clutching “serious slap in the face” to asking us if we’re related to Margaret Atwood because clarification was asked for? Nice deflection, but you were the one over the top not the other way around. Regardless, this little hijack is getting us nowhere. What pearl clutching? I swear, this place is absolutely terrible when it comes to snarky humor sometime. I make a joke about Atwood’s stupid quirk of refusing to call her stuff sci-fi (when it so obviously is) and then I get jumped on. What the hell? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-big-brother-handmaidens-tale-brave-new-world-happen/662750/119 "2013-07-08T15:24:40Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Exapno, it looks like you are REALLY depending on the BIG picture here. > > We are talking about specific societies. The U.S. isn’t the ‘overall world’. It is one nation. Nations do fall. And this completes the circle, so that we’re officially saying the same thing over and over. Here’s my contribution. The U.S. \*could \*fall, but only by some currently unknown process. But no nation with a long-term stable democratic government has ever fallen. Ever. The next time would be the first time. So what are you extrapolating off of? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-big-brother-handmaidens-tale-brave-new-world-happen/662750/120 "2013-07-08T16:35:24Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > And this completes the circle, so that we’re officially saying the same thing over and over. > > Here’s my contribution. The U.S. \*could \*fall, but only by some currently unknown process. But no nation with a long-term stable democratic government has ever fallen. Ever. The next time would be the first time. So what are you extrapolating off of? The world is at a place in history where we have never been before, for a long list of reasons. I don’t think you can go by what has gone before to predict what can happen in the future. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-big-brother-handmaidens-tale-brave-new-world-happen/662750.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-big-brother-handmaidens-tale-brave-new-world-happen/662750.md?page=7)