Can Big Brother, Handmaiden's Tale, Brave New World happen?

You clearly know next to nothing about robotics. “Deciding to take over the world” implies artificial intelligence, I’m talking about much simpler, less problematic things: computer software that can interpret what a camera sees and translate that into movements of a robotic hand that will be as deft as a human hand. That’s a much simpler problem, and solving it is being incrementally approached every day in factories all over the world.

It’s still a very tough problem, mind you, but it’s a far cry from artificial intelligence.

It was a joke. :rolleyes:

But seriously, the day “sufficiently advanced robots” arrive to do all our manual labor, a giant market for “authentic human-made” stuff will emerge. Or are you completely unaware of the locavore/home-made boom that is currently going on?

Are you seriously suggesting that locavore/homemade stuff is likely to become a significant element of our economy, compared to computer-produced stuff that works as well, probably better? That’s just a PART of the crafts market, which is a tiny portion of the overall economy.

And as I’ve argued in other threads, a future of mass cheap automated production, where expert systems replace doctors and robots replace plumbers and sexbots replace hookers, owning automated factories won’t make you rich because the marginal cost of everything will be zero. And when the marginal cost of food and consumer goods is zero, then you can only charge commodity prices for them. And there’s no point in deliberately keeping food and goods and services out of the hands of “the poor” since it doesn’t cost anything to provide them, all that shit is provided for the lazy bums by robots.

In other words, the super-rich industrialists and software and media people and bankers and retailers and so on of today are equivalent to the landed aristocracy of the feudal era. Our notions of what it means to “be rich” are going to be upended.

I mean, today it is possible to become extremely rich by producing software and movies. But go to any third world country, and you can buy a copy of windows for the price of a CD. And with automation and fabrication this is the fate of every good and service that can be automated. When people are fired from their jobs because their jobs can be done by automated systems, the new cost of the goods and services they used to provide is going to be near zero.

Or let’s look at it another way. You get fired from your accountant job. You’re unemployed, and there are no goods and services you can provide that can’t be done cheaper by robots. You’re permanently unemployable. Except, can you scratch the dirt with a stick and put in seeds and harvest them? No you can’t because subsistence farming can be done cheaper by a robot. Except you’re unemployed, so your time is worth nothing! That means you have to be getting your food for free, otherwise it would be worth your while to scratch out a living from the dirt like a Neolithic peasant. It means your clothes have to be free, otherwise you’d be fashioning clothes from scraps and leaves. And on and on.

People who become unemployed today don’t become subsistence farmers because it isn’t worth their while, because there is free food available. They don’t hand-make clothing because their is free, or nearly free mass produced clothing available. It is true that people end up on the streets because we don’t have free or nearly free housing, but in real life people who aren’t mentally ill tend to live with their friends and family rather than camp on the streets. People get all kinds of assistance. People don’t starve in the streets because we have social mechanisms to prevent that. We’re not going to cut social services to the point where people are homeless and starving, because that’s when you get riots and civil unrest, and the cost of providing “the poor” with crusts of bread and rags is actually quite cheap, and will just get cheaper in the future.

In other words, simply picking through the castoffs of the rich will provide a lifestyle better than what people have today. “The Rich” would have to take active steps to deny “The Poor” the goods and services they need to survive. It would require more than not caring about whether the poor live or die, it would require an active desire to kill them. Sure, if the rich create killbots to kill all humans who aren’t part of the oligarchy, or slapbots to slap food out of people’s hands as they try to eat, or rainbots to spray people with water if they try to sit under freeway overpasses while it rains, then we’ve got a dystopia.

Otherwise, we’ve got piles of essentially free goods and services lying around, and automated systems everywhere creating more every second. How that turns into a dystopia is hard for me to understand.

Yes, I am. As Lemur866 so eloquently pointed out, when everything is automated, everything will drop in price to ridiculously low levels. Everything will also be the same. The only way to obtain unique items (and trust me, “the rich” will go out of their way to be unique in this type of society) is to pay a person to make them.

Not necessarily, the point of ubiquitous automation is that the cost of customization will drop to zero as well. To take an example, you can get custom printed t-shirts for nearly the price of the t-shirt. Sure, you need to provide the graphic for them, and the production of that graphic might be difficult or costly. But printing 1 or 100 of that custom printed shirt is nearly as easy as printing 100,00.

And if we’re imagining mass automation of every sort of job, designer’s jobs will be automated as well, just like doctors and lawyers and accountants. Probably not with a robot designer, but rather systems will evolve that will make the designer’s job increasingly abstruse and unnecessary and obsolete. One way to make an auto mechanic’s job obsolete is to create a robot that will run out and fix your car. Another way is to make a car that is so well made it almost never breaks. Another way is to throw your car into the recycle bin when it breaks and print a new one from your home fabricator. Another way is to have moving sidewalks everywhere. Another way is video conferencing.

Essential to your vision of the future is the rise of social safety nets that will keep the unemployable fed, clothed and housed, in a world that does not have anything like that, outside the European socialist democracies. I agree that EVENTUALLY something like that is likely, but I suspect there will be a lot of lag before it happens. A LOT of lag, in which hundreds of millions, likely billions, will die. If you think I am wrong, try arguing that the rich should support the poor in Great Debates. You will find a huge number of people who dislike it in SDMB. And we’re a left-leaning board. Try it elsewhere and see what you get.

You seem to be saying that when robotic assembly makes everything easy and cheap to make, costs will go down to nothing. How can the rich make money selling things for nothing. Why would they?

Our best and brightest economists are just beginning to notice these trends.

Obviously the rich can’t make money producing goods and services for next to nothing. That’s why the people who own automated factories and expert systems won’t be rich in the future. Automated factories won’t be scarce goods in the future. Anyone who wants one will have one. And so how can you get rich by having one?

If you have the only factory in the world, you become master of the world. If you have one of 7 billion factories, you’re just another schmuck.

There may be ways of becoming incredibly rich in the future world of the future, but it won’t be because you own an automated factory.

This happens even today. The factories in China that produce expensive goods for American companies aren’t owned by American companies. They’re owned by Chinese companies that produce these goods on a contract basis. And while they make decent money, they only get a fraction of the total profits from goods. And they don’t have much choice, because if one factory tries to charge Apple more to assemple iPods, Apple will just go to another assembler who will do it for cheaper. Apple gets the excess value of the iPod, Foxconn gets commodity profits for its commodity service of inserting Tab A into Slot B over and over again. In the same way that the assembly line worker is just a commodity that can be replaced by anyone with two thumbs and a pulse, the assembly line itself is just a commodity.

And this trend will only intensify, that’s the whole thrust of ubiquitous automation.

And I don’t predict ever higher taxes on the rich to pay for ever increasing social services for the poor. Rather that in the future world where automated production of goods and services throws ever increasing numbers of people out of work, providing the minimal goods and services needed to keep the huddled masses from starving to death will be extremely cheap. Like they say on the ads, a dollar a day can keep a little kid in Africa from starving to death. Even if social service spending stays flat–not staying the same as a percentage of GDP, but staying exactly the same, those dollars will go much further in a world where automatically produced goods and services are spraying out of factories like machine gun bullets.

And as the super-rich get super-richer, the percentage of their income that goes to support the lazy bums on welfare gets smaller and smaller, even as the lazy bums are getting more and more support for the same cost.

Note that nobody on Earth starves to death today, except in cases of war where if you try to distribute food to starving people somebody starts shooting at you. Crop failures and economic dislocation don’t cause starvation, men with guns who shoot aid workers cause starvation. The monetary cost of the wheat and soybeans is a rounding error in the cost of feeding refugees. The rich assholes who own Archer Daniels Midland and who complain about having to pay taxes also demand that the government buys up excess corn and wheat and soy because the price is so low. Welfare for starving people is corporate welfare for the people who produce the food the government buys to feed the starving people. The 1% have certain interests in common, but they surely don’t form a unified class.

And remember, the managers and bankers and CEOs and capitalists who form the 1% today are just as vulnerable to losing their jobs to automated processes as the janitors and mechanics and truck drivers and accountants and burger flippers and doctors and musicians and cowboys and authors and software developers and teachers and lawyers and day care workers and clerks. If the CEO’s job never becomes automatable, how are they going to automate teaching and writing and lawyering?

You are right, bad authors win the Booker Award (once) all the time - and are regularly short listed for the Booker during their career (five times). The usually get shortlisted and win the Governor General’s Award as well, or the Prince of the Austurias Award and are usually listed on the odds table for the Nobel Prize in Literature. :rolleyes:

Doesn’t matter what some damned academics think. Her stuff stinks.

Thank you.

So nobody’s read Octavia Butler?

Aaaand, in addition to being a post-apocalypse instead of a dystopia, you’re not even correct.

Strangely enough, psychologists have actually studied these things after recent massive disasters, and despite our odd relish of the idea that we’re secretly vicious tooth and claw killers, what really happens is this: after mass tragedies, people are actually MORE socially conscious and helpful to their neighbors and even to complete strangers than they are in their daily life.

It’s such a common and well-researched phenomenon that even a quick Google search will pull up recent studies, but if you want a full read about it, check out Amanda Ripley’s The Unthinkable: Who Survives When Disaster Strikes.

Now, if you want to skirt the issue and posit a disaster that is so full-bore that all of modern society (communications, travel, information) breaks down or vanishes *permanently *instead of just for weeks or even months, you’ve got bigger obstacles to your long-term survival than the inclinations of your fellow man, I’m afraid.

I have, actually - it’s just been a little while. Refresh my memory?

Here you go.

I have. What would you like to say about her books in relation to the subject of this thread?

I won’t argue this here because it’s off topic but I disagree.

With an EMP within two weeks our grocery stores would be stripped clean. Those who didn’t have enough food to feed their families would soon enough go looking for those who did. The chances of this resulting in a friendly neighborhood picnic wouldn’t last long.

Isn’t it a good thing that we are so far removed from the reality of this kind of scenario that it seems unimaginable? Lucky people.

And based on the studies that I’ve read and the actual reports of the actions taken by people living in disaster zones, I respectfully disagree with your opinion.

You are right, it wouldn’t be a picnic, but before I believe that we would riot in the streets due to a natural disaster or a massive power failure, I’d like to see some cites please, *other *than the 1977 New York riots which most scholars agree were in large part due to other simultaneous tensions at the time. (Please note that in 1965 and in 2003, there weren’t similar social problems.)

Honestly, if you’re looking for an EMP scenario, you should look at the 2003 outage. It was massive in area, and the brownouts and rolling blackouts lasted for weeks. However, people somehow managed to avoid rioting, killing the competition for the last can of SPAM on the shelves, or gutting people in the streets to suck the moisture from their eyeballs.

Please believe me, I am not some starry-eyed idealist. I firmly believe that people in general are pretty much shit. However, regardless of my personal opinions, the repeated outcome of studies looking at humans surviving disaster scenarios, all over the world, from all walks of life, is that people tend to band together and work together to survive.

And yes, I do feel very lucky that I don’t have to worry much about it. I’ve got plenty of other stuff that I can worry about instead, like whether Oryx and Crake is science fiction or not. :smiley:

It describes a widespread breakdown of society in the mid-to-late 21st century—but not a total breakdown—in which the only social order that can persist is protected within walled communities. Outside the walls it’s extremely violent and chaotic. People constantly get killed in horrific ways and their bodies eaten by feral animals. The situation is an economic division between the haves and have-nots which aggravates the breakdown of society. The only safe communities are the ones tightly controlled by wealthy corporations. (An extrapolation of gated communities for the affluent.) The heroine of Parable of the Sower lives in a former middle-class community in California, now struggling for survival and constantly subject to massacres by violent elements outside its walls, which are not defendable enough to allow long-term survival. Such U.S. government as remains is being taken over by Handmaid’s Tale-style fundamentalists, but it has no influence outside certain major population centers.

In Parable of the Talents, the heroine and her followers trek to Northern California to found a new community—which however is attacked and taken over by a corporation which sics sadistic misogynistic and homophobic religious enforcers on them. The small band pursuing a new vision of humanity’s future somehow persists, and eventually order is restored across the country. They are trying to prepare for humanity’s expansion into outer space, even though there is no funding or technology at this stage to allow it (that’s why they’re visionaries). Butler was planning to write more novels in this series, taking it farther into the future and maybe into space, but she died after writing the second book. :frowning:

These books scared me because they hit closer to home, with the increasing economic stratification in America, extrapolating it into a war of all against all. Of all the dystopias or dystopia-like fiction I’ve read, these books impressed me as the most realistic imagining of how America could go into the shitter, based on the actual America we live in now.

Rochester has been doing its version of One City One Book for many years, and I used to be an active volunteer in it.

By coincidence, Butler’s *Kindred *was chosen as the book one year. I spent a lot of time with her, driving her to appearances and talks and whatnot. She was a very nice person, and we core volunteers had a big laugh-filled casual lunch with her one day.

But I can’t say that Parable of the Sower impressed me very much as a novel. To be honest, I never even got around to Parable of the Talents. (Volunteers got a whole pile of the author’s books in paperback which were dutifully autographed. My copy is inscribed "to a better Future! Hey, I can get behind that!)

Nzinga and Justin*, I hope you got to hear her when she was in town. She’s quite a good, energetic speaker.
*Yours are the names I recognize as being local. Sorry if I missed someone.