# Can child rape victims be forced to mother their children? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 26, 2018, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283 "2018-08-26T01:18:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/21 "2018-08-26T11:57:26Z")
Perhaps not, but one would hope any social service org she reaches out to, or come into contact with, certainly should. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/22 "2018-08-26T12:26:09Z")
> [@Contemplation](#): > > … > In a moral/biblical sense, murder is the intentional killing of a human being… Please provide a cite that the bible considers abortion to be equivalent to murder. My understanding is that it considers it to be more like a property crime. As to the question, I assume you’re asking about the US. Aren’t there some countries where there are no exceptions that allow abortion? I remember in Ireland (before they changed the laws), there was a woman with a very high risk pregnancy and was denied an abortion and died. I think some Central American and maybe South American countries allow no exceptions – I’m curious about how this would play out there, if anyone here knows. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/23 "2018-08-26T12:37:55Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Perhaps not, but one would hope any social service org she reaches out to, or come into contact with, certainly should. Would she know how to reach out? Would she if she did? Our poor 12 year old would most likely be forced by her family to live with her child being raised as her sister. But is it true a 12-year-old cannot legally give up her parental rights, assuming the birth occurs in a setting where she has the opportunity? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/24 "2018-08-26T13:00:11Z")
Someone will notice a pregnant 12 yr old. Teacher, Doctor, dentist, neighbour, cousin, pastor. Any could contact/involve social services. Of course she can surrender her parental rights. Underage girls give up children for adoption every day. This is nothing new in the law, already accommodated. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/25 "2018-08-26T13:26:08Z")
> [@Contemplation](#): > > Abortion is murder. It is not legally murder but it definatly is murder. Nope, you are wrong, by definition. > [@](#): > > mur·der > ˈmərdər > noun > > the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. Abortion is legal, therefore it is not, by definition, murder. ETA: no reason to point out that the fetus is not a human being ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/26 "2018-08-26T13:27:34Z")
The incest thing is a red herring. The rape thing is a red herring. The question is if there is any state in which a child cannot give up parental rights without their own parent’s consent, either through adoption or abortion. Can grandparents ever stop an adoption if the minor child parent pursues it? Once we can know whether or not they can, then mitigating circumstances like rape or incest can be brought up. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/27 "2018-08-26T13:51:32Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And forcing a twelve-year-old girl to risk her life, AFTER a seriously traumatic event, all because you want a grandchild? So you don’t care if you traumatize her further, all over, as you said, “a clump of cells”? > > What’s more important to you, that clump of cells, or your daughter’s life and well-being? Serious question– Why do you want to traumatize such a girl even further, by forcing her to go the rest of her life knowing that (A) her unborn child was murdered, and (B) her family was complicit in that evil? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/28 "2018-08-26T13:57:32Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Serious question– > Why do you want to traumatize such a girl even further, by forcing her to go the rest of her life knowing that (A) her unborn child was murdered, and (B) her family was complicit in that evil? The definition of “murder” has already been given as “the **unlawful** premeditated killing of one human being by another”(bolding mine). Do you have an alternate serious question you would like to ask? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/29 "2018-08-26T14:56:29Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Serious question– > Why do you want to traumatize such a girl even further, by forcing her to go the rest of her life knowing that (A) her unborn child was murdered, and (B) her family was complicit in that evil? There is a startling number of begged questions in that sentence. I’m all for efficiency, but dang. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/30 "2018-08-26T15:33:18Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Please provide a cite that the bible considers abortion to be equivalent to murder. My understanding is that it considers it to be more like a property crime. > > As to the question, I assume you’re asking about the US. Aren’t there some countries where there are no exceptions that allow abortion? I remember in Ireland (before they changed the laws), there was a woman with a very high risk pregnancy and was denied an abortion and died. I presume you’re referring to [Savita Halappanavar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar), who died from sepsis after a miscarriage, who was refused a termination until it was too late to help, even though it was clear a miscarriage was already underway, so there was no chance of saving the fetus. Technically Ireland did have an exception for risks for the life to the mother at the time, but the guidelines were fuzzy, not evenly applied, and there was an apparent culture among some medical staff of refusing abortions to be ‘on the safe side’ legally, even when it was not ‘on the safe side’ medically. Forcing a 12 year old to continue an unwanted pregnancy is barbaric. I would personally hope any child whose parents would attempt that would not only fail in that, but lose custody of the child as well. Yes, 12 is too young to really make an informed choice, but that’s kind of why we have an age of consent, to avoid this situation. Ideally they should be given neutral advice on all possible options; abortion, going through with birth and adoption (including by grandparents if they wish for this), and going through with birth and attempting to parent. The person who will have to live with the results of the decision has the best right to make the choice, if they have any capacity at all to do so. Not the potential grandparents and not some guy on a message board. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/31 "2018-08-26T16:38:26Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Serious question– > Why do you want to traumatize such a girl even further, by forcing her to go the rest of her life knowing that (A) her unborn child was murdered, and (B) her family was complicit in that evil? Please provide a cite that early stage voluntary abortion traumatizes the woman. I imagine that late-term abortions that have to be done because of a dead fetus, severe abnormalities, or dangerous health complications are traumatic. But, I see no reason why a first trimester medical abortion, for example, would be. So, please provide a neutral cite. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/32 "2018-08-26T16:41:29Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > I presume you’re referring to [Savita Halappanavar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar), who died from sepsis after a miscarriage, who was refused a termination until it was too late to help, even though it was clear a miscarriage was already underway, so there was no chance of saving the fetus… Yes, that’s the one. Apparently, there are no exceptions in El Salvador that make abortion legal. You could use a self-defense exception if the woman’s life is in danger, but that’s it. So, if this 12-year old were healthy and in El Salvador, she’s having her father’s (or uncle’s) baby. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/33 "2018-08-26T17:09:40Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Serious question– > Why do you want to traumatize such a girl even further, by forcing her to go the rest of her life knowing that (A) her unborn child was murdered, and (B) her family was complicit in that evil? For starters, if she goes through with the pregnancy, she might not even survive to have “the rest of her life”. And second, this idea that women are “traumatized” by abortion is mostly a crock of shit. As for her family being “complicit in that evil”, she was impregnated by her own father. That ship has sailed. (I know if that had been me, there is no way on earth that I’d have wanted to go through with that pregnancy. Even though I wasn’t as staunchly pro-choice as I am now, there’s no way in hell that an abortion would’ve scarred me any further, if I were in that kind of situation.) ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/34 "2018-08-26T17:45:18Z")
> [@Contemplation](#): > > In a moral/biblical sense, murder is the intentional killing of a human being. A fetus that is still just a cluster of a few cells is still a human being with it’s own DNA that is distinct from the mother’s. > Our DNA is what makes us human beings, not our conscious-awareness. Where in the Bible does it say that our DNA is what makes us human beings? And since identical twins have the same DNA, does that mean they’re the same person? ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/35 "2018-08-26T17:56:54Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Someone will notice a pregnant 12 yr old. Teacher, Doctor, dentist, neighbour, cousin, pastor. Any could contact/involve social services. > > Of course she can surrender her parental rights. Underage girls give up children for adoption every day. This is nothing new in the law, already accommodated. A home-schooled child in a fundamentalist church could easily escape notice and / or intervention. As soon as a female can have children biologically, she starts putting on that extra adipose tissue. I am quite certain a 12 year old could escape notice until to late for intervention, as have many older teens. But the OP suggested she could not. Is there a distinction between surrending parental rights and putting a child up for adoption that I’ve missed here? (These are honest questions, thank you.) > [@kayaker](#): > > … > ETA: no reason to point out that the fetus is not a human being I strongly disagree. I think that should be pointed out forcefully whenever necessary. > [@Flyer](#): > > Serious question– > Why do you want to traumatize such a girl even further, by forcing her to go the rest of her life knowing that (A) her unborn child was murdered, and (B) her family was complicit in that evil? It’s not murder. It’s not evil. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/36 "2018-08-26T20:11:05Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Someone will notice a pregnant 12 yr old. Teacher, Doctor, dentist, neighbour, cousin, pastor. Any could contact/involve social services. > > Of course she can surrender her parental rights. Underage girls give up children for adoption every day. This is nothing new in the law, already accommodated. Everyone you listed, other than neighbor or cousin, are mandatory reporters. NOT telling authorities, if they know about it, gets THEMSELVES in trouble. One thing that’s always confused me about judicial bypass is how these young girls, even with one, can undergo a surgical procedure without their parents knowing something is going on. That’s on top of the court appearance in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/37 "2018-08-26T21:03:07Z")
[Parental consent for adoption is required in four states.](https://adopt-connect.com/blog-post/adoption-without-parental-consent-for-minors/) As to being forced to “mother,” maybe theoretically, but how? Parents of twelve-year-olds are usually locked in a never-ending battle over room cleaning. Good luck with diapers. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/38 "2018-08-26T21:43:04Z")
Just to clarify, here are some of the effects pregnancy and delivery have on a 10-12-year-old’s body: • The placenta routes nutrition to the fetus first, depriving the mother, still a child herself, of nutrition necessary for growth and health. • Blood volume increases 50% during pregnancy, straining the smaller heart of a child-mother. • The pelvis doesn’t widen until a female reaches her late teens. This means a full-size baby must be forced through a very small pelvis, often getting stuck. • Because the pelvic floor isn’t fully developed, young girls are much more likely to develop fistulas between rectum and vagina and bladder and vagina. Feces and urine leak out the vagina, often leading to infection. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/39 "2018-08-26T22:11:23Z")
> [@Contemplation](#): > > For example, if a 12-year-old girl were to be impregnated, and her family wanted to keep new child, would she be forced into motherhood? In the old days when safe abortions of any sort were more difficult to obtain the usual practice for a very young mother was for her to have the baby then her parents raise the grandchild as a “sibling” to the mother. For a real-world instance - in 1974 Jack Nicholson found out that his older sister June was actually his mother - she had been unmarried and 18 at the time, in a much earlier age. So Jack was raised as her and her sister’s younger brother. Although that did not involve a case of rape but rather fraud and lying on the part of the father. Plenty of less famous people grew up under similar arrangements, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/40 "2018-08-26T22:12:21Z")
> [@HelenGawn](#): > > [Parental consent for adoption is required in four states.](https://adopt-connect.com/blog-post/adoption-without-parental-consent-for-minors/) As to being forced to “mother,” maybe theoretically, but how? Parents of twelve-year-olds are usually locked in a never-ending battle over room cleaning. Good luck with diapers. It’s the legal aspect, not the practical one. If you are legally a child’s parent, you’re on the hook for child support, can be charged with neglect, etc. If a child – or a pair of child-parents-- wants to put a newborn up for adoption at 16 and is prevented by the grandparents, it is the child-parents who will then bear that legal responsibility. And the courts won’t let you just surrender your rights to an older child. It’s got to be done when there is a family waiting to adopt. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283.md?page=3)