# Can child rape victims be forced to mother their children? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 26, 2018, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283 "2018-08-26T01:18:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2018, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/61 "2018-08-27T05:23:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And I’m asking if the Original Poster has an opinion about his Original Post. Ahh, ok, I have Mondayitis don’t mind me. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2018, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/62 "2018-08-27T05:24:16Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Embryos and fetuses are not children. They are potential children. I was addressing my remarks to **kanicbird** , who clearly views embryos and fetuses as children. It makes little sense to me that someone who believes embryos and fetuses to be children would place a higher value on the life of those “children” than children who are raped and forced to give birth. I’m still waiting for an answer from **kanicbird**. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2018, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/63 "2018-08-27T05:37:13Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > I was addressing my remarks to **kanicbird** , who clearly views embryos and fetuses as children. It makes little sense to me that someone who believes embryos and fetuses to be children would place a higher value on the life of those “children” than children who are raped and forced to give birth. > > I’m still waiting for an answer from **kanicbird**. You may be a better person that I am. ---
**Author:** ![Contemplation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Contemplation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contemplation)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2018, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/64 "2018-08-27T05:47:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Would you happen to have an opinion on the OP and/or the question you just raised? No, that is a question, not a statement. What defines a human being is a difficult question to answer. Some say, first breath, some say a heartbeat, some say conscious awareness, and some people say its the DNA. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2018, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/65 "2018-08-27T05:50:28Z")
> [@nightshadea](#): > > wouldn’t happen in CA ….the California court would appoint a non parental custodian for a hearing and the judge would likely rule in favor of termination That assumes the case is known early enough for termination. Often the pregnancies of very young girls aren’t found out until delivery. ---
**Author:** ![Contemplation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Contemplation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contemplation)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2018, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/66 "2018-08-27T05:53:40Z")
You also have to address **utilitarianism vs fundamentalism.** In a utilitarian stand point of view, the option that results in the least death and suffering of all parties involved would be the best option. In a fundamental point of view, the option that adheres strictly to the rule is the best point. For example, if you let a train cart run over 5 people when you could have pulled a lever that would change it’s direction to only roll over one person, the option to let it run over 5 people would be better because you didn’t actually kill anyone, you just allowed what was already going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2018, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/67 "2018-08-27T09:34:28Z")
Who are these people who say, ‘it’s the DNA’? How is it the DNA? Can you explain what this part means please? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2018, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/68 "2018-08-27T10:45:15Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Who are these people who say, ‘it’s the DNA’? > > How is it the DNA? Can you explain what this part means please? I saw something like that on this board once. It was an effort to define the zygote/embryo as human (and therefore immoral to kill) when the moment it established its own unique DNA pattern from the contributions of its parents, or something. Then I asked if in the case of identical twins, it was okay to kill one, or something. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2018, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/69 "2018-08-27T11:06:37Z")
> [@Contemplation](#): > > No, that is a question, not a statement. > What defines a human being is a difficult question to answer. Some say, first breath, some say a heartbeat, some say conscious awareness, and some people say its the DNA. I _know_ you are asking questions. I am asking if _you_ have any opinions on the questions you are asking. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2018, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/70 "2018-08-27T11:15:05Z")
> [@Contemplation](#): > > No, that is a question, not a statement. > What defines a human being is a difficult question to answer. Some say, first breath, some say a heartbeat, some say conscious awareness, and some people say its the DNA. I just had a bowel movement. There’s DNA present. Would you care to apply to adopt it? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2018, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/71 "2018-08-27T11:27:19Z")
> [@Contemplation](#): > > No, that is a question, not a statement. > What defines a human being is a difficult question to answer. Some say, first breath, some say a heartbeat, some say conscious awareness, and some people say its the DNA. Apparently you have already given your position on what makes a human being: > [@](#): > > Abortion is murder. It is not legally murder but it definatly is murder. > In a moral/biblical sense, murder is the intentional killing of a human being. A fetus that is still just a cluster of a few cells is still a human being with it’s own DNA that is distinct from the mother’s. > Our DNA is what makes us human beings, not our conscious-awareness. > > Abortion is the intentional termination of a fetus, and this intentionally results in the death of that fetus. Killing someone intentionally is murder, therefore abortion is murder. Here we can see the non-neutral position you are taking, Care to defend your position that DNA is what makes us human? BTW, that “in a moral/biblical sense” bit seems to tie morality and whatever religion you follow together rather tightly. Do you acknowledge that one can be moral and not follow your Bible? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2018, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/72 "2018-08-27T12:19:23Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > You’re saying HALF of all women who have abortions die?! Nope. Please show a cite. According to a 2012 study published by the [NCIB PubMed](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22270271), > > Unless, of course, you were referring to the mortality rate for the embryo, in which case, it’s about 100%. So combined about 50% mortality, as in general a child dies and the mother lives, but yes almost 100% if we are talking about excluding the mothers from the mortality count. If we don’t like counting the child as a person in the case of abortion - which is understandable, then childbirth has a net negative mortality rate of about (-) 100%, which is, in general, very good for our species. > [@](#): > > But I’d like to ask you when one child’s life becomes less worthy than another child’s life. Pregnancy at age 12 is very dangerous. If the child-mother’s life is in danger, does that of the the embryo/fetus/baby always come first? I didn’t say that the child comes first. I came to peace with the issue of abortion after many years of siding with the politics, rethinking, residing, etc and then throwing the whole thing out and deciding the issue based on our relationship with God and prayer. I have come to the conclusion that 1: the fetus is fully a human being and a human life 2: It is as much the woman’s choice to destroy the body of the fetus as it is God’s choice to destroy the body of any person in the world. For we are created in the likeness of God and are to act as God would act. I would add 3: The woman can not cause the fetus to ‘die’ - but only destroy the body, as that relationship is between the fetus and God and God can spare people from (going through) death - basically God can take the ‘soul’ out of the body before the point of death (as seen in scriptures), which is based on the relationship taht soul has with God (and issues of free will). I believe without acknowledging that the fetus is a human I could never accept abortion as something really helpful, and one that elevates us to really be in the image of God. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2018, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/73 "2018-08-27T12:23:35Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > So combined about 50% mortality, as in general a child dies and the mother lives, but yes almost 100% if we are talking about excluding the mothers from the mortality count. If we don’t like counting the child as a person in the case of abortion - which is understandable, then childbirth has a net negative mortality rate of about (-) 100%, which is, in general, very good for our species. > > I didn’t say that the child comes first. I came to peace with the issue of abortion after many years of siding with the politics, rethinking, residing, etc and then throwing the whole thing out and deciding the issue based on our relationship with God and prayer. > > I have come to the conclusion that 1: the fetus is fully a human being and a human life 2: It is as much the woman’s choice to destroy the body of the fetus as it is God’s choice to destroy the body of any person in the world. For we are created in the likeness of God and are to act as God would act. I would add 3: The woman can not cause the fetus to ‘die’ - but only destroy the body, as that relationship is between the fetus and God and God can spare people from (going through) death - basically God can take the ‘soul’ out of the body before the point of death (as seen in scriptures), which is based on the relationship taht soul has with God (and issues of free will). > > I believe without acknowledging that the fetus is a human I could never accept abortion as something really helpful, and one that elevates us to really be in the image of God. It is not a given in this debate that a small collection of cells is the same as a child, nor is it a given in this debate that we are all on the same spiritual path as you…or any spiritual path at all, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2018, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/74 "2018-08-27T13:50:43Z")
If a responsible parent/guardian, a doctor, a judge, or the 12 year old herself decides an abortion is the right thing to do, so be it. It’s legal, often moral, and if you don’t agree, work to make abortion illegal again (and good luck with that). ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2018, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/75 "2018-08-27T16:51:38Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/76 "2018-08-27T17:07:42Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I have come to the conclusion that 1: the fetus is fully a human being and a human life 2: It is as much the woman’s choice to destroy the body of the fetus as it is God’s choice to destroy the body of any person in the world. For we are created in the likeness of God and are to act as God would act. > > I believe without acknowledging that the fetus is a human I could never accept abortion as something really helpful, and one that elevates us to really be in the image of God. Putting aside your statistics for the moment, I’m having trouble following your logic. You believe humans are supposed to act as God would act, and since God destroys human bodies, people morally can, too? I realize you were referring to fetuses, but since you define it as a human body, then you’re arguing the murder of any living human is OK because God also smites people dead? And you think if we _do_ define a fetus as human, abortion is morally defensible, but if we don’t, it’s not? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2018, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/77 "2018-08-27T17:08:25Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > If a responsible parent/guardian, a doctor, a judge, or the 12 year old herself decides an abortion is the right thing to do, so be it. FWIW, I don’t think a parent or a judge can legally compel an abortion over a pregnant minor’s objection. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/78 "2018-08-27T17:28:19Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > The supreme court says abortion is legal. It’s a right and a choice. At this time your religious fervor doesn’t mean a goddamn thing. If that 12yo was raped and abused and has an unhealthy pregnancy, she is perfectly within the law to have an abortion. Nothing _anyone_ can pray, witness or exclaim can change that. Well, except her legal guardians … ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/79 "2018-08-27T17:46:28Z")
Some hypotheticals are best unasked. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2018, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283/80 "2018-08-27T17:50:45Z")
God has a voice in the discussion(although not a deciding voice) the day he shows up in person for a paternity test and it turns up positive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-child-rape-victims-be-forced-to-mother-their-children/820283.md?page=5)