# Can Christians believe in the Big Bang? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 4, 2002, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-christians-believe-in-the-big-bang/135217 "2002-11-04T14:31:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-christians-believe-in-the-big-bang/135217/41 "2002-11-05T12:25:43Z")
Damn! By “this thread” I mean, of course, this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141134](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141134) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-christians-believe-in-the-big-bang/135217/42 "2002-11-05T12:27:31Z")
I wonder where this will all end… ---
**Author:** ![Illuvatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b38774/32.png) [@Illuvatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuvatar)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-christians-believe-in-the-big-bang/135217/43 "2002-11-05T13:04:29Z")
> [@](#): > > 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. > 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. > 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. > 4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness. > 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Ok this is WRONG scientifically if you ignore the ‘in one day’ part. There was light BEFORE the earth was formed. Now if the first sentence of the bible is scientifically flawed, even as an abstract model of scientific theory, then clearly it is incompatible with the big bang. And there you have it, end of debate. **Mangetout** it has ended, Amen 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-christians-believe-in-the-big-bang/135217/44 "2002-11-05T13:16:26Z")
Illuvatar wrote: > [@](#): > > Now if the first sentence of the bible [sic] is scientifically flawed, even as an abstract model of scientific theory, then clearly it is incompatible with the big bang. The logical fallacy you just committed, Illuvatar, is called a “straw man”. The debate is not about whether the Bible is scientifically flawed, but about whether a Christian can believe in the Big Bang. I am a Christian. I believe in the Big Bang. Therefore, Christians can believe in the Big Bang. Now the debate has ended. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-christians-believe-in-the-big-bang/135217/45 "2002-11-05T13:34:31Z")
What about Scotsmen? can they believe in the big bang? (I feel sure that’s where we will go next). ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-christians-believe-in-the-big-bang/135217/46 "2002-11-05T13:48:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*What about Scotsmen? can they believe in the big bang? (I feel sure that’s where we will go next). \*\* Only in the presence of big sheep. Um… :d&r: ---
**Author:** ![Illuvatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b38774/32.png) [@Illuvatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuvatar)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-christians-believe-in-the-big-bang/135217/47 "2002-11-05T14:12:26Z")
**Libertarian** Your not a christian unless you believe in the bible. If you interpret the bible to be literal then in your own little world you are a christian and others are not. If you interpret the bible to be a metaphorical book then in your own little world you are a christian others are not. Regardless of which type of chrisitan you think you are, the interpretted MEANING of the bible has to be believed inorder to be a christian. Divine beings don’t include a section devoted to the construction of the universe to be IGNORED by followers. James 2:9 “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.” You can’t just use the bits you like, if your interpretation is a valid one it must include the WHOLE bible. In the literal interpretation of the bible, the creation of the universe is scientifically wrong (obviously). In the metaphorical interpretation YOU STILL CAN’T CHANGE THE ORDER OF EVENTS otherwise WHY was it put into the bible in the first place?? for fun?? a fiction section in the divine book??, if the order of events is incorrect then the scientific application does not match and thus it is scientifically wrong (based on the big bang which this debate happens to be about). Now if you don’t mind I’ll get back to being at the end of the debate. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-christians-believe-in-the-big-bang/135217/48 "2002-11-05T14:17:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Illuvatar \* > **Libertarian Your not a christian unless you believe in the bible. If you interpret the bible to be literal then in your own little world you are a christian and others are not. If you interpret the bible to be a metaphorical book then in your own little world you are a christian others are not.** See, I told you this would happen. How is it, **Illuvatar** , that you are able to inspect **lib** ’s (‘own little’)private world? ---
**Author:** ![Illuvatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b38774/32.png) [@Illuvatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuvatar)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-christians-believe-in-the-big-bang/135217/49 "2002-11-05T14:24:34Z")
That’s my way of saying that two different sects of one religion that interpret it differently may think the others have got the interpretation wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-christians-believe-in-the-big-bang/135217/50 "2002-11-05T14:34:09Z")
They may, but one or more of the factions may not feel the other(s) are in such a depth of error as to be disqualified from the faith (a good example of this would be the baptism debate - some immerse, some sprinkle - the sprinklers generally accept that immersion is OK, the reverse is less true, but as far as I know, neither side accuses the other of ‘not being proper Christians’, well, not for that particular reason anyway…) ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-christians-believe-in-the-big-bang/135217/51 "2002-11-05T14:39:23Z")
ILLUVATAR - you are wrong. You can still be saved, and believe in the BIG BANG. A saved man is by definition a Christian. A saved man believes that Christ died for his sins. He doesn`t necesarilly believe that the universe was created. I choose to believe in creation. I believe I am saved. Your “interpretation” of the Bible does not qaulify your place next to God in Heaven. Your belief that He sent his only Son to die for your sins is your only qaulification. A man never having read the Bible can still be saved with this simple belief. ---
**Author:** ![Illuvatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b38774/32.png) [@Illuvatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuvatar)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-christians-believe-in-the-big-bang/135217/52 "2002-11-05T15:38:14Z")
**whuckfistle** this is the definition of a christian: > [@](#): > > Chris·tian > n. > > 1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. > 2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus. Ok so I guess your right in the definition. But I saw nothing in the dictionary definition or YOUR definition which said anything about following the torah or any other part of the Bible. So I guess your right again, all you need to be a Christian is to be “A saved man believes that Christ died for his sins.” Now explain to me why you believe in some bulshit story in the Old Testament about creation if it has nothing to do with being saved? Congraduations **whuckfistle** perhaps you ended the “Can Christians believe in the Big Bang?” debate on affirmative (opposite to my argument which said creation and christianity were inseperable). So I guess I was wrong, and you WERE right. Lookout **whuckfistle** I think you’ve upset the literalist fundies… :S ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-christians-believe-in-the-big-bang/135217/53 "2002-11-05T16:15:35Z")
Oddly enough, I don’t think the fundamentalists will be upset. The fundamentalist position, as I understand it, is that all that is necessary for salvation is a personal acceptance of Jesus Christ as your saviour. Many fundamentalists also believe that the bible is factually correct in every respect, but \they don’t believe that acceptance of this is necessary for salvation\. As a rule, they might think, if you don’t believe in the inerrancy of scripture, that might cast doubt on the genuineness or completeness of your acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. They would find it very surprising and even suspicious that anyone \could\ accept Jesus Christ and still reject the inerrancy of the Bible, and they would argue that such a stance is mistaken and wrong. A person genuinely holding such a position would, however, in the fundamentalist view, still be saved. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-christians-believe-in-the-big-bang/135217/54 "2002-11-05T16:19:54Z")
Mangetout wrote: > [@](#): > > What about Scotsmen? can they believe in the big bang? (I feel sure that’s where we will go next). Now, Mange. Let’s give the fellow a bit more credit than … Oops. * * * Illuvatar wrote: > [@](#): > > Libertarian Your [sic] not a christian [sic] unless you believe in the bible [sic]. Are you here just to provide examples of classic logic blunders? Your latest one is called the [No True Scotsman](http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#scots) fallacy. And Mange even saw it coming. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-christians-believe-in-the-big-bang/135217/55 "2002-11-05T16:27:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Illuvatar wrote: > > The logical fallacy you just committed, Illuvatar, is called a “straw man”. The debate is not about whether the Bible is scientifically flawed, but about whether a Christian can believe in the Big Bang. > > I am a Christian. I believe in the Big Bang. Therefore, Christians can believe in the Big Bang. > > Now the debate has ended. \*\* To quote an internet friend of mine, the only Big Bang I beleive in is God said it, and Bang it happened! Now just how did that big old rock explode and everything just fall right into their proper places with galazies, solar systems, etc.? What are the odds of that? Pretty slim I imagine. And we’re billions of years old? Come on they’re only guessing. I read (sorry, I retain pieces of info but don’t remember the source) in a book once that a certain amount of dust falls on the moon per year. If it was as old as they say, the astronauts should have sank and been buried. How come there are creation scientist who believe there’s evidence to support a young earth. I’ve heard about that. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-christians-believe-in-the-big-bang/135217/56 "2002-11-05T16:38:09Z")
The Big bang isn’t about a rock exploding; it’s about the origin and expansion of spacetime. Oh and the moon dust argument is [dead and buried](http://members.aol.com/dwise1/cre_ev/moondust.html). ---
**Author:** ![Papermache\_Prince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@Papermache\_Prince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Papermache_Prince)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-christians-believe-in-the-big-bang/135217/57 "2002-11-05T16:47:41Z")
Not the “moon dust” theory, please. [Talk Origins FAQ](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/moon-dust.html) Even some creationists have given up on that one – "There is a recent creationist technical paper on this topic which admits that the depth of dust on the moon is concordant with the mainstream age and history of the solar system (Snelling and Rush 1993). Their abstract concludes with: “It thus appears that the amount of meteoritic dust and meteorite debris in the lunar regolith and surface dust layer, even taking into account the postulated early intense bombardment, does not contradict the evolutionists’ multi-billion year timescale (while not proving it). Unfortunately, attempted counter-responses by creationists have so far failed because of spurious arguments or faulty calculations. Thus, until new evidence is forthcoming, creationists should not continue to use the dust on the moon as evidence against an old age for the moon and the solar system.”" Snelling, Andrew A., and David E. Rush, 1993. “Moon Dust and the Age of the Solar System” in Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal 7, No. 1, pp. 2-42. When [_Answers in Genesis_](http://aig.gospelcom.net/docs/1372.asp) gives up an argument, you know it stinks. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-christians-believe-in-the-big-bang/135217/58 "2002-11-05T16:51:50Z")
I feel more at home here ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-christians-believe-in-the-big-bang/135217/59 "2002-11-05T16:53:27Z")
His4Ever > [@](#): > > Now just how did that big old rock explode and everything just fall right into their proper places with galazies, solar systems, etc.? 😃 My dear, you are nothing if not precious. God go with you always. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-christians-believe-in-the-big-bang/135217/60 "2002-11-05T17:01:28Z")
**His4Ever** , in what way does what you have to say disagree with what I said earlier in this thread – or does it disagree at all? The Big Bang theory does not address purposiveness in the Universe nor its causality – in short, while some who accept the Big Bang may think “it just happened to happen,” it does not say that it was chance. It merely describes what appears to be probable way in which the Universe we live in physically came into being, based on the evidence available to astrophysics. On the other hand, rejecting this evidence because it does not agree with **your interpretation** that the first chapter of the Bible happens to be a strict narrative account rather than a poetic description of how God created (which is **not** disagreeing with the Bible, unless you hold that David observed some actual hills rising up, singing, and leaping around like sheep at the coming of the Lord, and reported observing this improbable event in the Psalms, instead of exaggerating for poetic effect the imagined response of the entire world of joy in its Creator. Bottom line: God created the Universe. God inspired the Bible. If there are falsehoods in either, then one is forced to call Him a liar. On the other hand, the idea that a given passage, such as Genesis 1, is a literal account and not an affirmation, using the literary genre of creation myth for impact, that He created everything by His Word and called it good, that idea is a **human** construct. And if it forces me to say that God planted false evidence in His Creation, then I reject it, because **My God is not a liar**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-christians-believe-in-the-big-bang/135217.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-christians-believe-in-the-big-bang/135217.md?page=4)