# Can comics be saved by hot girls?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [February 3, 2005, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219 "2005-02-03T18:39:30Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/1 "2005-02-03T18:39:30Z")
> [@Reginald Hudlin](#):
>
> As for the general public’s acceptance of comics, hey, the struggle continues. It all comes down to hot girls. If hot girls gravitate around a scene, then that scene is cool. Anything that repels hot girls is stigmatized. Girls may or may not like sports, but they “get” sports. You see hot girls singing along happily with the most misogynistic rap songs. But those same hot girls, by and large, don’t get comics. The only area of the comics industry that seems to attract women, and attractive women at that, is manga.
>
> For the sake of my daughter, and for the sake of lonely fanboys everywhere, I’d love to figure out how to make comics appeal to more women. Whether we need to make changes in content, or marketing, or both, we need to do it to grow the business. God bless the women who do read comics, but we need more.
Agree or disagree?
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### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/2 "2005-02-03T18:48:49Z")
I think if the comics industry wands to attract more women, they need to make the women they have look more like real women and less like Jessica Rabbit.
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### Author:  [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/3 "2005-02-03T18:52:51Z")
I do believe that comics will benefit from a largely untapped female readership. The reason that women do not read comics is not a matter of marketing by the comic companies as by the readers: _Some_ 15-35 year old men are keeping women from reading by being disparaging their existence, being territorial, proprietary, and insulting.
**The comics themselves should not try and change**. The advent of prominent female writers like Devin Grayson and Gail Simone, as well as writers that appeal to women, like Terry Moore and J Michael Straczynski, are doing just fine in creating content. Marvel and DC have to find the block between the content and the reader and remove it _without harming the content_. I would also say women are more likely to read **Buffy** and **CSI** comics, which are by smaller presses. The big houses should take note and capitalize.
As far as manga/comics go, I’d say the Teen Titans cartoon–American superheroes drawn in a Japanese style–is a good way to go.
> [@Hudlin](#):
>
> It all comes down to hot girls. If hot girls gravitate around a scene, then that scene is cool. Anything that repels hot girls is stigmatized. Girls may or may not like sports, but they “get” sports. You see hot girls singing along happily with the most misogynistic rap songs. But those same hot girls, by and large, don’t get comics.
That’s exactly what’s wrong with the marketing. As long as women readers are objectified, they’re not going to be eager to delve into the medium.
[Women in Refrigerators](http://www.the-pantheon.net/wir/) might be a good source of background research on the disconnect between women and comics.
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### Author:  [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/4 "2005-02-03T18:54:41Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#):
>
> I think if the comics industry wands to attract more women, they need to make the women they have look more like real women and less like Jessica Rabbit.
Damn! It’s like some horrible kind of Catch-22, like in that novel, Fahrenheit 451.
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### Author:  [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/5 "2005-02-03T18:58:29Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#):
>
> I think if the comics industry wands to attract more women, they need to make the women they have look more like real women and less like Jessica Rabbit.
Right, because all the hot women I knew in high school certainly didn’t read magazines like Cosmo where women also look like Jessica Rabbit. :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/6 "2005-02-03T18:58:58Z")
I think it’s the subject matter. A nice little romance story, some real emotion, instead of bluster and “my gun is bigger than your gun”. Must like manga, I should say, which is pretty sex neutral in Japan, in that there is guy manga and there is also girl manga. I personally like the girl type more… superhero manga can get so… _juvenile._
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### Author:  [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/7 "2005-02-03T19:01:44Z")
_Anything_ can be saved by hot girls.
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### Author:  [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/8 "2005-02-03T19:02:42Z")
> [@Rysler](#):
>
> That’s exactly what’s wrong with the marketing. As long as women readers are objectified, they’re not going to be eager to delve into the medium…
I disagree! Modeling objectifies women, sports objectifies women, films of all genres objectifies women and they do just fine attracting women in their audiences. The difference is that women see themselves benefitting from the objectification, either financially or emotionally, and they flock to them.
What are American comic books doing wrong that it (as an industry) doesn’t attract hot girls?
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### Author:  [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/9 "2005-02-03T19:03:44Z")
> [@Munch](#):
>
> Right, because all the hot women I knew in high school certainly didn’t read magazines like Cosmo where women also look like Jessica Rabbit. :rolleyes:
Have to agree. Comics do have a problem with women drawn with unrealistic proportions, not enough strong females, and an unfortunate tendency towards using violence against women for cheap dramatic points. These are all real problems, and should be adressed for comics to reach its higher artistic potential.
But that’s no different than every other form of media. It’s the attending markettinga nd culture, not the content alone, that’s scaring away women.
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### Author:  [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/10 "2005-02-03T19:08:06Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#):
>
> I personally like the girl type more… superhero manga can get so… juvenile.
True, but the girl manga doesn’t necessarily mean a lack of guns and violence. _Utena_ and _Sailor Moon_ are dark and intense and yet, feminine. My main caution above about American comics is that they’d try and fail to create something like Shoujo. Already reading _Birds of Prey_ is like reading _Sex and the City_ in comic form. Not really my thing.
> [@Askia](#):
>
> I disagree! Modeling objectifies women, sports objectifies women, films of all genres objectifies women and they do just fine attracting women in their audiences. The difference is that women see themselves benefitting from the objectification, either financially or emotionally, and they flock to them.
Good point, and I cede the larger argument. Mostly. Do sports attract women to the same degree sports attract men? I like a good soccer game, but I don’t think I even qualify for “fan” status.
I agree that there’s no benefit or draw for women in comic books. The men have basically climbed up in their tree fort and put up a “Keep out” sign. Comics, like sports, are a word-of-mouth industry. Guys will have to start recruiting. Right now, they’re not.
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### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/11 "2005-02-03T19:24:13Z")
> [@Munch](#):
>
> Right, because all the hot women I knew in high school certainly didn’t read magazines like Cosmo where women also look like Jessica Rabbit. :rolleyes:
That’s not what I meant. Women in Cosmo exist whereas Jessica Rabbit is a physical impossibility.
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### Author:  [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/12 "2005-02-03T19:38:36Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#):
>
> That’s not what I meant. Women in Cosmo exist whereas Jessica Rabbit is a physical impossibility.
And? The women in Cosmo are as close as you can get to physically impossible. They are airbrushed, taped, pulled, liposucked, regugitated, tweezed and softly-lit into near-perfection - yet teenage women still flock to the newsstands to pick up the latest edition. Statistically speaking, the chances of a 13 year old girl growing up to become Jessica Rabbit are about even with the chances of her growing up to be on the cover of Cosmo.
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### Author:  [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/13 "2005-02-03T19:42:33Z")
I think part of the problem does have to deal with content… most superhuman female heroes are just as capable as men, but they aren’t particularly different, either.
I think it’s telling when the strongest female archetype in superhero comics has nothing that distinguishes her as a typical woman (arguably a stereotypical woman) other than her ta-tas and heels. She has no mothering instinct, romantic relationships, a menstrual period, pregnancy issues or neurotic worries, never dealt typically with a hetereosexual relationship outside a lot of kinky bondage imagery in the 40s and 50s and never REALLY dealt with homosexuality despite her origins as a faux-immortal on an island populated entirely of immortal women. Has Wonder Woman PERSONALLY ever dealt with issues that provide dramatic conflict with women: things like abortion, rape, sexual abuse, promiscuity, prostitution, uncompensated labor, motherhood, paternity, emotional betrayal, aging, cosmetic surgery, faithlessness, menopause, surrogate motherhood, sisterhood and friendships, unbridled lust in her young womanhood or fading passions in mddle age… or any of the other fifty million subjects of Lifetime movies? Cooking is an expression of love, devotion, cultural re-affirmation, passion, and many moods, from happiness to depression. Does Wonder Women ever cook? Eat? Hunt? Garden? Anything that makes her unique and interesting from her testosterone drunk allies?
Substitute Wonder Woman from any other female superhero you can think of…
i think some of the more interesting female heroes come from creators like Alan Moore, Gail Simone, Kurt Busiek, Neil Gaiman and Trina Robbins because you can actually see where some thought has been put in them beyond stereotypical heroine nonsense, and if there were a few dozen more like them, this wouldn’t be much of an issue.
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### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/14 "2005-02-03T19:46:58Z")
> [@Munch](#):
>
> The women in Cosmo are as close as you can get to physically impossible. They are airbrushed, taped, pulled, liposucked, regugitated, tweezed and softly-lit into near-perfection
Yes, but there’s obviously a real person under all that.
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### Author:  [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/15 "2005-02-03T19:53:07Z")
**Wonder Woman** is a great example of why we can take this comics microcosm and slap it on the world. They’re currently casting for Wonder Woman: The Movie. And women are clammering. Why? Because its the strongest female role available.
**Catwoman** and **Elektra** were doomed from the start to fail. Why? Because they took a decent, solid character, stiripped out _things like abortion, rape, sexual abuse, promiscuity, prostitution, uncompensated labor, motherhood, paternity, emotional betrayal, aging, cosmetic surgery, faithlessness, menopause, surrogate motherhood, sisterhood and friendships, unbridled lust in her young womanhood or fading passions in mddle age, and cooking_, and replaced that with Jessica Rabbit.
You didn’t see that happening in **Daredevil** or **Batman**.
:smack: :smack: :smack:
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### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/16 "2005-02-03T19:54:06Z")
It’s [not currently on his website](http://www.derfcity.com/o/old.html) but Derf’s The City comic strip once showed would happen if your average super-heroine stepped into our world. She immediately broke an ankle and blacked both eyes with her boobs.
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### Author:  [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/17 "2005-02-03T20:01:33Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Right, because all the hot women I knew in high school certainly didn’t read magazines like Cosmo where women also look like Jessica Rabbit.
I disagree with this comparison. Magazines like Cosmo do propogate unrealistic expectations for women to have of their bodies, but even then there’s a sense that they’re doing this on women’s terms. Girls who read the magazine find things that are useful to them, or at least things that they think are useful to them, within.
Mainstream comics (and I think “superhero” is pretty much understood here, especially since we started the discussion with Black Panther) don’t offer up their hideous caricatures for emulation and consumption by a female audience, they offer them up to fifteen year old heterosexual boys. They may both be unrealistic, but they’re unrealistic in extremely different ways.
The fundamental difference in how superhero comics, written and drawn primarily by men, treat men vs. women is that women are, without exception, written and drawn as sexual objects while men almost _never_ are. I think this just arises from comics being bought by a smaller and smaller audience and becoming increasingly specialized to appeal to that audience. I don’t think that’s necessarily a fault of comics, but it should come as no surprise that females aren’t gravitating toward often hyper-violent stories that don’t treat women very well if they acknowledge them at all.
So it’s also really not surprising that manga has shown us that there _is_ a market for girls who want to read comic-like material. I’ve started to read manga lately in response to the fact that mainstream comics are seemingly incapable of featuring gay characters in any kind of mature and meaningful context. I’ve found in manga something that American comics aren’t really offering. I would imagine it’s the same for many girls.
Also, as Askia points out, the female superheroes who actually have their own books are also marketed towards males. Wonder Woman’s book is an absolute mess and has been for a long time, so that might not be the best example, but something like, say, Batgirl might be. It’s also worth noting that even when a series starring a female that could easily appeal to both male and female readers like Dan Slott’s She-Hulk has these awful Playboy pinup-style covers that have nothing to do with the story within. Wonder Woman suffered the same problem during the era of Adam Hughes covers. Of course women aren’t picking these things up!
All that said, I’m not sure if attracting more female readers is necessarily what comics have to do right now. Surely it’s something they should desire, but I think that if it happens it’s going to be as a side-effect of a more general diversifying of the material avaiable in comic form, which is tied into getting comics into places other than specialty stores so books that don’t appeal just to fanboy-types have a chance to thrive.
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### Author:  [@tremorviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tremorviolet)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/18 "2005-02-03T20:02:29Z")
Well, it’s already happening in the manga world: [article](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050131/lf_afp/afplifestyleusjapan_050131160526).
> [@](#):
>
> American girls have helped make mangas successful in this country, representing between 50 to 60 percent of the readership, Griepp said.
The question for the American comics industry is can they take the lessons learned from manga and apply it to their product. Superhero comics will probably never apply to a broad spectrum of women but other genres might.
I think the other problem is scale. Japan’s manga industry turns out a lot of product constantly so there are a wide selection of magazines and books always available. To really attract women in America, there’d have to be “killer app”, a comic so good, women will be willing to wait for it to come out in bits and drabs.
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### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/19 "2005-02-03T20:09:28Z")
> [@shy guy](#):
>
> Mainstream comics (and I think “superhero” is pretty much understood here, especially since we started the discussion with Black Panther) don’t offer up their hideous caricatures for emulation and consumption by a female audience, they offer them up to fifteen year old heterosexual boys. They may both be unrealistic, but they’re unrealistic in extremely different ways.
That’s exactly what I was getting at. Thanks.
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### Author:  [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)
#### Post date: [February 3, 2005, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/20 "2005-02-03T20:12:21Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#):
>
> I think if the comics industry wands to attract more women, they need to make the women they have look more like real women and less like Jessica Rabbit.
GET REAL!!
If Paris Hilton looked like the average girl not one of them would look up to her. :dubious:
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