# Can comics be saved by hot girls? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 3, 2005, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219 "2005-02-03T18:39:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/61 "2005-02-05T05:31:56Z")
> [@Johnny Angel](#): > > You are equivocating. You take some pains to lay out a theory of power, but it is one that has nothing to do with the meaning of the word ‘power’ as it is used in comic books. The power that comic readers fantasize about are these super-human and extraordinary abilities that superheroes have. You are working with a definition of power that can be used to model social structures and human interactions in the real world, but has nothing to do with the powers that ‘superheroes’ are described as having, and that comic readers fantasize about. I’m not equivocating – I’m clarifying my meanings using very precise terms. “Superpowers” in comic books works in comic books… but as someone who has every copy of the DELUXE HANDBOOK TO THE MARVEL UNIVERSE and various copies of DC Who’s Who, you’ll no doubt agree there are those of us who try to quantify the fantatsic in real world terms, including cosmic powers and various psi abilities. Granted superpowers have no real basis in the real world or credible science fiction theory… but what I have tried to do is frame those same abilities using the social sciences. > [@](#): > > You can analyze the comic world by this model of power you’ve constructed, as you’ve done in part already, but in doing so you are not responding to my use of the term, and you hazzard conflating the two different senses of the term. I’ll try harder to respond to your questions regarding gender labels and types of power. I’ll trust you’ll bring it to my attention if I ever conflate anything. > [@](#): > > The closest your elaborate discussion comes to having anything to do with the meaning of ‘power’ in a comic book context is the issue of coercion. I rejected the relevance of ‘coercion’ when you first mentioned it because of its normative load. You came back with a definition of coercive power that is value neutral, and that buys you something, except that I still don’t accept the use of ‘coercion’ as value-neutral. ‘Force,’ which is part of your definition of coercion, is more like it. Both Spider-Man and Dr. Doom use force, for purposes of vastly different moral value. If that’s all you mean, then we are not at odds here. “The threat or actual use of force” is the definition I go by. I occassionally forget the connotations of words like coercion, which I really do not see as a moral value but a blunt description of force. But thanks for bringing it to my attention. > [@](#): > > But, and this seems likely to be the sticking point, while I bristle at assigning moral value to ‘coercion’ or ‘force,’ I am appalled to see such concepts assigned a gender. You continually assign gender to abstract concepts. You say that influence is feminine, that authority is masculine, subtlety is feminine, oversion is masculine. These gender-based bifurcations are baseless and insulting to both genders. You say that it’s an oversimplification to compare your littany of gender stereotypes to “Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus” but oversimplification is precisely what I’m charging you with. Assigning abstract concepts to genders is reductive in principle and misleading in practice. Your version differs in detail but not in kind to the fallacy of John Gray. Where he would say: > > _All women are X_ or, _all X is female_ > > You say: > > _All women are Y_ or, _all Y is female_ Actually what I say is closer to “Mostly women are Y, allowing for the possibility of exceptions I haven’t considered,” and “broadly speaking, but by no means absolutely, many Y are considered feminine,” – but I get your point. I don’t do it for everything, but I find it helpful to consider how certain activities, behaviors even colors have subjective masculine or feminine qualities for many people. Now, whereas you may see gender identification of abstract concepts as hopelessly subjective, baseless and insulting, reductive and misleading, I don’t share that view when it comes to grouping certain common behaviors popular or common between two genders. If you do look at things from, perhaps, a narrow and specific point of view it’s often an accurate assessment within that context. Anthropomorphizing the inanimate has been around since humanity has had poets to call the moon a woman and the sun a man. If you ascribe the non-living with human attributes, chances are you’ll assign them a gender, too – whether consciously, unconsciously or subconsciously. Doesn’t begin and end with me, but I do note when it happens. God is the ultimate abstract concept – is it any wonder the Creator is credibly cast in both male and female aspects? That the Earth and Nature are seen almost exclusively in feminine terms, yet Death is often masculine? If those powers can be male and female, why not super-powers? > [@](#): > > And by the way, if Wonder Woman is using a power to force a man to tell the truth when he doesn’t want to, that’s coercion. It may not involve physical force, but feminsts have struggled for years to push a notion of coercion that does not involve physical force, for obvious reasons. Not all coercion is physical, and there’s reason to suppose that most of it really is psychological. Right. Just the threat of physical force – real or perceived – is a powerful deterrent. Coercion is ultimately a non-value term in this context. > [@](#): > > … Wonder Woman’s truth-extracting power (in the comic book sense) happens to be a power (in your sociological sense) of coercion. So, what gender is it then? That’s rhetorical, of course, because I insist that it is no gender in particular. Firmly disagree that Wonder Woman’s power is coercive. I did not say “force.” I said “make.” A more accurate word would have been “compel.” But here I am equivocating just a bit… OK. Wonder Woman’s unbreakable magic lasso is thrown around a person; they struggle to free themselves and of course, cannot; she usually barks at them to submit, and they do… or to tell her the secret codes or whatever… and the captive feels compelled to tell the truth. I’ve read comics where Wonder Woman does this a thousand times, and there’s never been any evidence of threat involved, or any real force other than restraint; it’s mystical. I assume since Wonder Woman has to merely talk to whoever’s in the lasso’s bonds that the power therefore is either authoritative or influential… and since Wonder Woman’s tone is rarely commanding, I assume the latter. EXCEPT… well… That’s only accurate if you consider the old school Wonder Woman who used to be the JSA’s secretary at meetings and fought Giganta and Cheetah EVERY time they came up against the Legion of Doom. Wonder Woman has been written awfully more forceful and commanding since KINGDOM COME. She often is more forceful and authoritative when she ropes, say, a Greek demigod or rampaging alien metamorph. You might argue that the restraint itself might be perceived as force, and I… find myself… grudgingly agreeing… Okay. OKAY! Maybe her lasso is a little coercive. Or authoritative. Or more likely, mystically influential. I’d still characterize its use as feminine because its use is almost always defensive, or used in service to aid / restrain / immobilize / hinder someone / something in a non-injurious way. Thor’s hammer, on the other hand is named, destructive, phallus-shaped and palpably male in that respect. > [@](#): > > It happened at one point, after the death of Cyclops’ sister, that some of the mutants began to wonder how they would even know if their loyalty to Fess X was due to some psychic manipulation on his part. He is so powerful that there is never any way of knowing for sure. So, is his social power physical, psychological or emotional and is it influential or coercive? And now try to assign gender to it. He’s a father figure supremely equipped with what is ordinarily a feminine superpower. It can be insiduously influential and often authoritative, but not coercive. > [@](#): > > My point is that it’s only male historically, not intrinsically. My point is that I never said the gender values were innate, just subjective and pervasive. > [@](#): > > But do they challenge your sense of what it means to be a woman? If they don’t cry at the end of Steel Magnolias, can we sign them up for Selective Service? Whoops, there’s me being a smartass again. I find it’s growing on me for some odd reason. > [@](#): > > What I mean is, can they be who they are without having to justify calling themselves women? Because that seems like the challenge you present for Wonder Woman. My psycic intuition tells me that you will accuse me of misunderstanding you again, so let me ask for a specific clarification. Of the things you list as concerns endemic to women – pregnancy, periods, rape, neuroses, ect. – which are really _sine qua non_ of womanhood? All or none. Even the denial of many things ascribed to women could make for a fascinating female character, if handled credibly. It’s not these things you listed are emblemic of women’s characterization, per se, it’s just that most MALE writers don’t do them justice. Uh, answering your question less slipperily, I like to read about contemporary female characters who struggle with the choices thay have to balance in terms of career and family, dealing with men as rivals, allies, partners and enemies and – personally – how they deal with kids. I like seeing what separates a bitch from a doormat and whether that gap can be bridged. And if we must deal with cliches like abortion, rape, motherhod and periods, I’d like to see some range in how different female characters react to them. > [@](#): > > These are strong female characters, but I fear that you would doubt their femininity for all the reasons they are considered strong. Tell me why I’m wrong. Strong female heroes can be strong irrespective of whether they have a particular female concern. I just find Wonder Woman a bit suspect because, to the best of my knowledge, she’s never dealt with ANY of the things I listed. I mean, come ON. Is she gay? Does she want kids? What about her contradictory mission of peace in man’s world where she has training as a warrior? Which means of justice would she prefer to dispense – incarceration or the death penalty? It’s the same kind of introspection I’d like from Superman and Batman, too. > [@](#): > > The few women I know who read comics did so for the same reasons that men are dismissed for reading comics with female heroes – because Wolverine is imminently fuckable. I personally don’t see anything wrong with that. But there’s always somebody who will pop up and say, “Girls don’t think that way. Girls don’t have sexual fantasies about absurdly built figments printed on cheap paper.” In at least a couple of cases, I have observed that girls do. Thus my theory about how to bring more girls into comics – don’t just try to make female characters they can identify with, but make male characters they’d like to fuck. I may be nuts but it seems the most successful male characters are more like Morpheus of the Endless. > [@](#): > > But the world can’t get over what I like to think of the Loveline Syndrome. Loveline was a show on MTV in which men would call up and talk about how they liked to fuck, and this guy Adam Corolla would laugh and say, “Yeah, you know, we guys like the fucking.” And then a woman would call up and say, “I like to fuck” and this Dr. Drew would say, “Seek counseling immediately. We need to get to the bottom of why you think you enjoy sex. Stay on the phone, somebody is coming by to put you in a straight jacket, and we’ll find out what psychosexual childhood trauma has led you to believe that sex is fun, you poor girl. Call your lawyer, we’re putting your father up on charges.” You may have a point. I recently bought Mark Millar’s TROUBLE out the quarter bins and found myself actually shocked to have a freewheeling sexually active Aunt May thrown in my face. ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/62 "2005-02-05T05:55:46Z")
Wow. These arguements are zooming over my head. Here are two things I managed to pull out of the ether. 1. [This](http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp12272001.shtml) and [this](http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp12282001.shtml) are the reasons you’ll never get hot women into comic book shops. 2. Nobody has mentioned Mia Dearden, the new Speedy in this. Skilled enough to go rounds with Robin, rattles off quips like Spiderman, and she’s HIV positive from a previous life of prostetution. I’m not sure how one would account for her, but I, a guy, love her. I might even start reading Teen Titans if she starts showing up. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/63 "2005-02-05T06:10:37Z")
> [@Wolfian](#): > > 1. Nobody has mentioned Mia Dearden, the new Speedy in this. Skilled enough to go rounds with Robin, rattles off quips like Spiderman, and she’s HIV positive from a previous life of prostetution. I’m not sure how one would account for her, but I, a guy, love her. I might even start reading Teen Titans if she starts showing up. I’m really looking forward to Mia - who is one of my favourite characters, now - joining the Titans. I’m interested to see how the other Titans respond to her. I can see Superboy freaking out about her HIV+ status. Maybe Wonder Girl, too, but I know less about her. The others, I think, would handle her better. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/64 "2005-02-05T08:02:21Z")
**Askia** wrote: > [@](#): > > I’m not equivocating – I’m clarifying my meanings using very precise terms… Granted superpowers have no real basis in the real world or credible science fiction theory… but what I have tried to do is frame those same abilities using the social sciences. These are two different things. Your model may be useful for talking about why it is that The Thing obeys Reed Richards, in spite of his deep seeded and justified grudges, but it cannot possibly answer any questions as to whether The Thing could whup Sandman. > [@](#): > > I’ll trust you’ll bring it to my attention if I ever conflate anything. I trust that I already did. It’s actually kind of a hobby of mine. > [@](#): > > “The threat or actual use of force” is the definition I go by. I occassionally forget the connotations of words like coercion, which I really do not see as a moral value but a blunt description of force. But thanks for bringing it to my attention. If pinned down, I’d have to say that, yes, Spider-Man coerced Vermin into not killing people. But the word ‘coercion’ implies a negative moral value to the force used, and I tend to think that the fewer people killed by jagged teeth and prehensile tongues, the better. The word has a moral and even emotional load beyond its literal meaning, and I’m prepared to risk being accused of playing semantics to save Spider-Man’s honor. > [@](#): > > I don’t do it for everything, but I find it helpful to consider how certain activities, behaviors even colors have subjective masculine or feminine qualities for many people. With regard to this thread, there is the question of whether a gender encoding model can be used to attract hot chicks to comics, and by extension bring in more males. I can’t explain why girls idolize Britney Spears, much less why they don’t idolize Elektra. The biggest success of Geek Culture to bring in the females has been White Wolf’s Vampire: The Masquerade, and the charge has often been made that this is because the Storyteller system requires very little math. I suspect it has more to to with the fact that Vampires are sexy and Orcs are not, but somebody must be hard at work figuring out how to extract the lessons from Vampire and apply them to all things nerdy. I have a book called Netchick which I trot out for my Rhetoric 1302 students with the explanation that somebody apparently decided that they needed a way to sell computers to women, and that way was to create a computer-savvy version of the Cosmo girl – computers as fashion accessories. It created a new kind of poseur, which I didn’t meet in real life, but saw all over the various media – a woman who claimed to have been into computers from way back (about the c64 era). There were few enough girls back then, buying 1541 drives at Protecto, yet suddenly in the 90’s there was a glut of women on TV claiming to have been one of them. Ultimately, computers became ubiquitious not because they convinced women that they were sexy, but because it became harder to get by without them. But it says a lot about what people in boardrooms think the female mindset is like. It may turn out that I’m the idiot for scoffing at all that – that geek culture will only become mainstream by becoming cool and sexy until geeks are not even allowed to participate. But I suspect that the solution to bringing the girls in has something to do with no longer telling them they’re not supposed to like math, and not supposed to like sex. > [@](#): > > Anthropomorphizing the inanimate has been around since humanity has had poets to call the moon a woman and the sun a man. If you want to claim that love is a sickness full of woes, all remedies refusing, I’ll agree with you without question. If you then try to make that claim on your insurance, you bet I’ll object. > [@](#): > > God is the ultimate abstract concept – is it any wonder the Creator is credibly cast in both male and female aspects? What does that prove, other than that no particular gender is essential to the creator? People are inclined to impose gender, but that doesn’t mean it’s true. > [@](#): > > I’d still characterize its use as feminine because its use is almost always defensive, or used in service to aid / restrain / immobilize / hinder someone / something in a non-injurious way. > [@](#): > > I’d still characterize its use as feminine because its use is almost always defensive, or used in service to aid / restrain / immobilize / hinder someone / something in a non-injurious way. Yet, I suspect that by non-injurous, you also mean non-insidious. But if you give to women the social, the influential, and the subtle, then what comes with that is lying, cheating, prevaricating, oath-breaking, perfidy, inconstancy – all of which are negative social traits that women have been tarred with. When you assign social traits to the female, you ignore the vicious ones. > [@](#): > > He’s a father figure supremely equipped with what is ordinarily a feminine superpower. It can be insiduously influential and often authoritative, but not coercive. Explain this to Cyclops. > [@](#): > > My point is that I never said the gender values were innate, just subjective and pervasive. Fuck 'em, then. Wonder Woman can smoke a cigar and piss out a window for all I care. > [@](#): > > it’s just that most MALE writers don’t do them justice. I think it’s because male writers think writing women is about checking off a Mars/Venus list of what women care about. I contend that it starts with observing actual women. > [@](#): > > And if we must deal with cliches like abortion, rape, motherhod and periods, I’d like to see some range in how different female characters react to them. As long as they can be who they are, and not who some gender expert believes they’re supposed to be. > [@](#): > > I mean, come ON. Is she gay? Does she want kids? What about her contradictory mission of peace in man’s world where she has training as a warrior? What of Firefly’s Zoe, who is a warrior woman? She loves a man who is basically just a sweet guy, but she wants him to give her children. > [@](#): > > You may have a point. I recently bought Mark Millar’s TROUBLE out the quarter bins and found myself actually shocked to have a freewheeling sexually active Aunt May thrown in my face. As much as I like a new, stronger Aunt May, there’s no bullshitting me that I was simply misinterpreting the old Aunt May. She really would have had a heart attack if somebody told her that Peter was Spider-Man. I haven’t seen her as sexually active, but such is my mind that I immediately think of her near marriage to Doctor Octopus. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/65 "2005-02-05T17:35:43Z")
> [@Johnny Angel](#): > > These are two different things. Your model may be useful for talking about why it is that The Thing obeys Reed Richards, in spite of his deep seeded and justified grudges, but it cannot possibly answer any questions as to whether The Thing could whup Sandman. Actually, that’s the best part: it absolutely does. You just have to consider the sources of each character’s powers: organization, numbers and resources, then compare them. In a one-on-one fight, the Thing is significantly outmatched by Sandman’s superior organization (complete molecular control of his body and its states) and the fact that Sandman requires fewer resources to function and has few physical limitations. However, if you consider the Thing’s access to superior organization, increased numbers and technological resources by drawing on aid from the Fantastic Four, then the Sandman becomes significantly less of a threat. But, present this same fight on a beach and Sandman suddenly has more sand, or resources, to increase his mass, which in turn helps combat the Fantastic Four’s superior numbers. On the other hand, that much more mass makes the Sandman more vulnerable to organizational disruption in a prolonged fight. Given these facts, the advantage is Sandman’s unless the Thing finds a way to contain him, negate his body’s own cohesive organization or somehow limits his access to sand. > [@](#): > > If pinned down, I’d have to say that, yes, Spider-Man coerced Vermin into not killing people. But the word ‘coercion’ implies a negative moral value to the force used, and I tend to think that the fewer people killed by jagged teeth and prehensile tongues, the better. The word has a moral and even emotional load beyond its literal meaning, and I’m prepared to risk being accused of playing semantics to save Spider-Man’s honor. Yay, me. Yay you for sticking to your guns. duly noted and maybe one of these days I’ll think of a less jugemental sounding word than “coercion.” > [@](#): > > With regard to this thread, there is the question of whether a gender encoding model can be used to attract hot chicks to comics, and by extension bring in more males. I can’t explain why girls idolize Britney Spears, much less why they don’t idolize Elektra. Real-life celebrity and money trumps a fictional mercenary’s physical prowress and weird psychosexual hang-ups. TRANSLATION: Her daddy? Ew. > [@](#): > > The biggest success of Geek Culture to bring in the females has been White Wolf’s Vampire: The Masquerade, and the charge has often been made that this is because the Storyteller system requires very little math. I suspect it has more to to with the fact that Vampires are sexy and Orcs are not, but somebody must be hard at work figuring out how to extract the lessons from Vampire and apply them to all things nerdy. We need to hire this person and give them the superheroes need hot girls fanbase assignment immediately. > [@](#): > > Ultimately, computers became ubiquitious not because they convinced women that they were sexy, but because it became harder to get by without them. But it says a lot about what people in boardrooms think the female mindset is like. It may turn out that I’m the idiot for scoffing at all that – that geek culture will only become mainstream by becoming cool and sexy until geeks are not even allowed to participate. But I suspect that the solution to bringing the girls in has something to do with no longer telling them they’re not supposed to like math, and not supposed to like sex. I tend to agree. Plus the guys have to be hotter, too. > [@](#): > > If you want to claim that love is a sickness full of woes, all remedies refusing, I’ll agree with you without question. If you then try to make that claim on your insurance, you bet I’ll object. You and my HMO. Dammit, I knew I shouldn’t have consulted THE BOOK OF THE DEAD when I filled out those forms. > [@](#): > > What does that prove, other than that no particular gender is essential to the creator? People are inclined to impose gender, but that doesn’t mean it’s true. Hey, I’m with you. Tell that to the Pope. > [@](#): > > Yet, I suspect that by non-injurous, you also mean non-insidious. But if you give to women the social, the influential, and the subtle, then what comes with that is lying, cheating, prevaricating, oath-breaking, perfidy, inconstancy – all of which are negative social traits that women have been tarred with. When you assign social traits to the female, you ignore the vicious ones. I IGNORE NOTHING. However, I may downplay them. More to the point, those negative female traits wouldn’t ordinarily be ascribed to female superheroes since they’re perceived to be as competent as the men. Super-villainesses are fair game. > [@](#): > > Explain this to Cyclops. Did you talk to the Pope yet? > [@](#): > > Fuck 'em, then. Wonder Woman can smoke a cigar and piss out a window for all I care. That is not the Amazonian way. However the ancient Dionysian Furies are another matter, as is the hag in the Triumverate of witches. Also, I wouldn’t put it past Queen Latifah’s Cleo from SET IT OFF, either. > [@](#): > > I think it’s because male writers think writing women is about checking off a Mars/Venus list of what women care about. I contend that it starts with observing actual women. Or better still, interacting with them. > [@](#): > > What of Firefly’s Zoe, who is a warrior woman? She loves a man who is basically just a sweet guy, but she wants him to give her children. One of these days I’ll fileshare Firefly episodes and get back to you. > [@](#): > > As much as I like a new, stronger Aunt May, there’s no bullshitting me that I was simply misinterpreting the old Aunt May. She really would have had a heart attack if somebody told her that Peter was Spider-Man. I haven’t seen her as sexually active, but such is my mind that I immediately think of her near marriage to Doctor Octopus. TRANSLATION: Honeymooning Aunt May? Ew. ---
**Author:** ![Chairman\_Pow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Chairman\_Pow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chairman_Pow)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/66 "2005-02-05T18:53:33Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > We need to hire this person and give them the superheroes need hot girls fanbase assignment immediately. Believe me, we exist. Although superheroes are generally the quickest path to ruin for an indie company. Marvel’s not about to risk their fanboy market share (despite the ill-fated Tsunami line). DC’s finally realized it and between Humanoids and their manga thing are headed in the right direction. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/67 "2005-02-05T22:28:38Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > I think if the comics industry wands to attract more women, they need to make the women they have look more like real women and less like Jessica Rabbit. Oh, good, then they lose the guy readership, too. Talk about a recipe for ruination! ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/68 "2005-02-05T22:36:28Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > I may be nuts but it seems the most successful male characters are more like Morpheus of the Endless. I don’t want to blow your mind or anything, but there are plenty of women who would like to have sex with Morpheus of the Endless. Really. They’ll go on and on about it. This is clearly not the sole reason for Neil Gaiman’s success in attracting female readers, but it sure didn’t hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/69 "2005-02-06T01:23:33Z")
To attract more female readers, you need to create and market a product designed specifically for them. Tweaking what appeals to teenage boys isn’t going to do it. Find out exactly what it is that girls like to read, or the movies that they like to watch, or the games they like to play, and adapt those into the comic format. For example, my favorite form of literature is lesbian bondage porn. Adapt that into comic form and you have the perfect comic for . . . scratch that, bad example. Actually, what you’d get is pretty close to Wonder Woman, Jungle Girls, and Crime Comics from the 40’s. _Crossgen_ had a bunch of good comics with strong female characters. _Meridian_ was particularly good at doing everything right. The protagonist was a typical teenage girl, and looked it, suddenly granted great power. She reluctantly used this power to do good because, well, because Uncle Ben, er, her father had taught her well, and because nobody else could. When they weren’t wasting an entire issue trying to tie her story into the big overall storyline for the universe, it worked really well both the adventure elements and the social elements. _Mystic_ and _Route 666_ both had good heroines, each well defined and different from Meridian’s Sephie. Their spy comic had a good heroine, and their Pirate comic a female protagonist. Arwyn was clearly designed to appeal to the boys, but the others were a nice balance of action and emotional content. If their corporate policy–tying every single storyline into the big overall story line and then bringing every storyline to a halt to have a big crossover–hadn’t been so fundamentally flawed, there could have been some good inroads to the female market there. The comics also need to look at format and location. Perhaps instead of adapting the serial pamphlet form, writing directly for the digest sized trade, and putting those on grocery and department store shelves would get more exposure. I know from experience that men and women are treated _very_ differently in comic shops. My comic shop is well organized (comics in alphabetical order by title), clean, and brightly lit. The owner / manager and his son, who run the place, are friendly and accomodating. But the other customers see a woman who isn’t punk or goth as an alien creature. Mrs. Six wont’ even go in there with me anymore, she gets so creeped out. The cartoons linked above aren’t far off, and this is a place that isn’t an Android’s Dungeon clone. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/70 "2005-02-06T02:14:19Z")
> [@ava](#): > > And you know what’s funny? Most of my favorite comics have no notable female characters at all. They are about guys. It’s quite possible that the best thing American comic people can take away from women’s interest in manga is the yaoi factor. I might be buying more American comics (that aren’t connected with Neil Gaiman or Alan Moore) if there were more of that hot seme x uke action going on, with interesting character interplay and a fascinating balance of power. They could take away the ta-ta’s entirely and hold my interest with character and relationships there, trust me. ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/71 "2005-02-06T07:50:11Z")
Just got back from seeing _Million Dollar Baby_, and saw an interesting little tidbit. In one scene, the grizzled old caretaker of the gym, pllayed by Morgan Freeman, is seen reading a _Mystic_ comic book, which was created for and marketed primarily to teenage girls. ---
**Author:** ![ArrMatey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/arrmatey/32/3522_2.png) [@ArrMatey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArrMatey)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/72 "2005-02-06T18:52:34Z")
> [@Chairman Pow](#): > > IMO, the biggest problem with comics are comic book stores. While I’ve moved to a better grade of stores, the ones I used to go (and some I pop into now and then) to were discouraging, if not openly hostile to women. Women were either treated like idiots or ignored in most cases which, combined with the fact that most comic books suck, really turns someone off of trying to start reading, even if they do happen to find a store that isn’t so “misogyinistic.” I would like to hapilly crow here that the best local comic store is owned and run by a woman… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/73 "2005-02-06T23:10:56Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > They could take away the ta-ta’s entirely and hold my interest with character and relationships there, trust me. Amen to that! I just can’t see it though. It took so long for the yaoi to come out here that I bet it will be a long time in coming before we start seeing published american boy’s love arists for sale in the comic book shop. But we shall see. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2005, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/74 "2005-02-07T01:14:04Z")
I started this topic hoping you would respond and share some insights, and danged if I didn’t get caught up arguing with **Johnny Angel.** > [@Kaitlyn](#): > > To attract more female readers, you need to create and market a product designed specifically for them. > > Tweaking what appeals to teenage boys isn’t going to do it. I somewhat disagree with this, if only because if you’re one of the big two comics companies, you’ve already invested a lot of time and energy creating a stable of pre-existing characters and tons of money maintaining trademarks, most of whom are sitting around squandering name recognition and not really doing much of anything. Tweaking pre-existing concepts has proven very successful for a number of British comics creators in the past at DC, and for other newer contributers at VERTIGO – there’s no real reason to keep making new ones unless the company is adamantly opposed to your using pre-existing characters in a storyline they like, i.e., Moore tweaking the Charlton characters for WATCHMEN. Honestly, I think even stuff like THE INFERIOR FIVE, PREZ, ANGEL AND THE APE, MODERN ROMANCE, and THE GREEN TEAM (shamelessly patterned, say, TV’s _The OC_) could work with new takes on the old concepts. > [@](#): > > Find out exactly what it is that girls like to read, or the movies that they like to watch, or the games they like to play, and adapt those into the comic format. Now I grant you, I think this is key – adding, you’ll need to take the time to secure the talent who can pull in a different audience. I’ve often wondered why comics companies haven’t established a professional comic book pitcher to contact various literary agents and secure someone who writes for young adults to do one-shot comics like Judy Bloom, A. M. Martin, or commissioned someone like Al Hirschfield to do a Superman cover. To try and procure talent from outside the usual comics crowd. Comics’ problem is that they don’t seem interested in anyone who isn’t a director-writers or a writer who’s been on TV. It can’t just be about money. (Well, probably, thinking about it again – but it can’t all be about the money for EVERYONE; as Hudlin said, get enough hot girls interested in a scene and they’ll do it for damn-near-free exposure.) There are probably TONS of Hollywood types ready to do superheroes and/ or work with other projects in storyboard form. > [@](#): > > For example, my favorite form of literature is lesbian bondage porn. Adapt that into comic form and you have the perfect comic for . . . scratch that, bad example. Actually, what you’d get is pretty close to Wonder Woman, Jungle Girls, and Crime Comics from the 40’s. Makes you wonder why this stuff isn’t being re-packaged into the DC Archive Editions yet. Skipped the Crossgen titles… I haven’t even sampled any from quarter boxes yet and don’t feel informed enough to respond… > [@](#): > > The comics also need to look at format and location. Perhaps instead of adapting the serial pamphlet form, writing directly for the digest sized trade, and putting those on grocery and department store shelves would get more exposure. Agree again. One of the things that helped comics in the past was that they used to be EVERYWHERE and EVERYONE read them. One of the things that’s killing them now is that, haven given up this once-ubiquitous marketshare, they find that can’t get it back from other product manufacturers and retailers who make more money than the fifty cents each or whatever they make from comics. > [@](#): > > I know from experience that men and women are treated _very_ differently in comic shops. My comic shop is well organized (comics in alphabetical order by title), clean, and brightly lit. The owner / manager and his son, who run the place, are friendly and accomodating. But the other customers see a woman who isn’t punk or goth as an alien creature. Mrs. Six wont’ even go in there with me anymore, she gets so creeped out. She gets creeped out in a clean, well-lit, well organized, friendly and accommodating shop? Geez, hell. What DO women experience? I understand why the dank little hole-in-the-wall shops don’t do so well – what else happens that puts you off so? They ask you to get in costume? Take snaps with their cell phones? Openly masturbate? Break out X-ray glasses that actually work? I don’t get it. What’s the great divide? ---
**Author:** ![Selkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Selkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Selkie)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2005, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/75 "2005-02-07T02:20:34Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > What DO women experience? [Cat Piss Man](http://www.savantmag.com/16/retail16.html) is a familiar customer archetype for many fans, of either gender. I can’t count the number of times I’ve experienced the “Fan Boy Shuffle,” wherein a guy pretends to read a comic, sidles gingerly over next to me when he thinks I’m not looking, and then bolts the second there’s a danger of establishing eye contact. The Shuffle amuses me more than anything else, but I can see where it might bother other women. Other customers just openly stare, goggle-eyed, as if I’m an alien from another world. I’m fortunate to have a store near me which, while lacking in many respects, has a large enough female readership that we’re not usually objects of curiosity, and the staff treat men and women with equal disdain. Not everyone is so lucky. I think part of the discomfort stems from how small and crowded many comics shops are. Being stared at by a group of socially maladjusted young men isn’t as threatening in, say, a large retail mall, as in a claustrophobic shop with narrow aisles and poor line of sight. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2005, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/76 "2005-02-07T04:29:51Z")
My comics shop experience must be weird: I have never seen Cat Pee Guy. I’m in, out, 15 minutes tops, go once… maybe twice a month, year in and out, mostly on any day except Wednesday. I never see this kind of behavior, but then, I don’t linger unless I’m rooting through quarter boxes – and THAT’s maybe three times a year. I ignore everybody. I’m not rude, I just decline help unless I really need it and try to give everybody their space. I’m rather amazed this happens. I always assumed women get hassled at the crappy little comics shops. ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2005, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219/77 "2005-02-07T04:49:50Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > I started this topic hoping you would respond and share some insights, and danged if I didn’t get caught up arguing with **Johnny Angel.** Yeah, I got caught up arguing with Arwin in the pit for roughly the last week and missed this until a couple of days ago. I appreciate that you recognize me as someone who might have insight into the subject. I’ve changed my profile to show my e-mail address. Next time you’d like some input, feel free to page me. > [@](#): > > I somewhat disagree with this, if only because if you’re one of the big two comics companies, you’ve already invested a lot of time and energy creating a stable of pre-existing characters and tons of money maintaining trademarks, most of whom are sitting around squandering name recognition and not really doing much of anything. Tweaking pre-existing concepts has proven very successful for a number of British comics creators in the past at DC, and for other newer contributers at VERTIGO – there’s no real reason to keep making new ones unless the company is adamantly opposed to your using pre-existing characters in a storyline they like, i.e., Moore tweaking the Charlton characters for WATCHMEN. Honestly, I think even stuff like THE INFERIOR FIVE, PREZ, ANGEL AND THE APE, MODERN ROMANCE, and THE GREEN TEAM (shamelessly patterned, say, TV’s _The OC_) could work with new takes on the old concepts. I agree somewhat. Perhaps I should rephrase that to say that tweaking what appeals to teenage boys won’t be enough. I like the way DC has filled the Bat titles with female vigilantes, and they’re all different. Batgirl is the grim, silent type (of course) who’s still learning what it means to be human, let alone a teenage girl. Huntress (and dangit, why can’t any of the artists every draw her the right height?) is the impulsive ball-breaking bitch. Spoiler was the spunky girl in over her head, but willing to try anyway. Canary is balance, well adjusted one. Oracle is the symbolic mother for them all. > [@](#): > > Now I grant you, I think this is key – adding, you’ll need to take the time to secure the talent who can pull in a different audience. I’ve often wondered why comics companies haven’t established a professional comic book pitcher to contact various literary agents and secure someone who writes for young adults to do one-shot comics like Judy Bloom, A. M. Martin, or commissioned someone like Al Hirschfield to do a Superman cover. To try and procure talent from outside the usual comics crowd. I think Ann M. Martin has become a brand name for a bank or writers, like with the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew stories. But otherwise, I agree. Get some writers who know how to write for girls, have them write the stories, and let the artists do their jobs and figure out how to present the story visually. The best X-Men comics ever made were produced in this manner, with Claremont providing the words and Byrne the pictures. I’d add R. L. Stine to that list, and perhaps Stephen King. He loves comic books, knows how to write short fiction very well, is retiring from writing novels, and writes in a way that appeals to female readers. > [@](#): > > Makes you wonder why this stuff isn’t being re-packaged into the DC Archive Editions yet. Hell, they haven’t even gotten around to _Superboy_ or _Green Arrow_ yet, I think Jungle Girls are a ways off. Did DC do crime comics? I’d kinda like to see Marvel put out a Masterworks of Stan Lee and Jack Kirby’s work on their romance comics. _Young Romance_ costs a small fortune for anything with Lee or Kirby. > [@](#): > > Skipped the Crossgen titles… I haven’t even sampled any from quarter boxes yet and don’t feel informed enough to respond… My third grade girls love my _Meridian_ and _Mystic_ pocket editions. > [@](#): > > Agree again. One of the things that helped comics in the past was that they used to be EVERYWHERE and EVERYONE read them. One of the things that’s killing them now is that, haven given up this once-ubiquitous marketshare, they find that can’t get it back from other product manufacturers and retailers who make more money than the fifty cents each or whatever they make from comics. I’ve actually seen a new format lately: Coloring books. They’re printed and presented like coloring books, but in color, and put into the children’s book sections. I’ve seen a lot of _Spider-Girl_, several Marvel Age, and, bizarrely, _Emma Frost_. It’s an interesting marketing ploy. I also think that supemarkets are a missed market. Every grocery store I go to has Archie digests on a bookstand near one of the checkouts, and moms with kids will inevitably get their little ones one of these little gems. They’re a bargain–good quality paper nowdays, durable, and the equilent of three (for standard) or six (for a double digest) for about the price of a single pamphlet. And the digest size is perfect for secondary markets. You can put them on a standard book rack, and casual browsing doesn’t ruin them as easily. Harvey would have survived much longer if they’d gone deep into digest sales much earlier. The big two could benefit from digest sales, too. I got into comics from DC digests and the Marvel pocket book editions. I understand why they don’t do them anymore–they don’t want to cannibalize sales from their hardcovers and trades–but I think abandoning them is short signted. > [@](#): > > She gets creeped out in a clean, well-lit, well organized, friendly and accommodating shop? The owner is friendly and accommodating. The other customers, not so much. > [@](#): > > Geez, hell. What DO women experience? I understand why the dank little hole-in-the-wall shops don’t do so well – what else happens that puts you off so? They ask you to get in costume? That one hasn’t happened yet, but I’ve actually gone in costume, so it wouldn’t bother me. > [@](#): > > Take snaps with their cell phones? On several occasions. I had a rather unfortunate incident with a fan at a convention once, but that one was my fault. It’s in my first thread below if you haven’t read it. Openly staring is what creeps out Mrs Six the most. Very clumsy attempts at flirting. The way conversations stop when we’d go in, and they’d start whispering to each other. Sidling up and trying to rub up against us. And because we’re Asian, Austin Powers jokes, though to be fair, we get the Austin Powers thing everywhere. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-comics-be-saved-by-hot-girls/288219.md?page=3)