# Can congress pass funding for Ukrainian aid and distribute that funding if the executive branch refuses to participate
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-congress-pass-funding-for-ukrainian-aid-and-distribute-that-funding-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-participate/1010898
**Category:** Politics & Elections
**Created:** [November 28, 2024, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-congress-pass-funding-for-ukrainian-aid-and-distribute-that-funding-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-participate/1010898 "2024-11-28T04:51:54Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)
#### Post date: [November 28, 2024, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-congress-pass-funding-for-ukrainian-aid-and-distribute-that-funding-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-participate/1010898/1 "2024-11-28T04:51:55Z")
I know congress can pass laws despite a presidential veto if they have 2/3 majority.
Its my understanding that the house and senate were giving around a 70-80% majority vote for aid for Ukraine. One bill for Ukrainian funding passed with 311 votes in the house and 79 votes in the senate for example.
Does that mean a 2/3 majority of the house and senate could pass a bill to give military aid to Ukraine despite a presidential veto? If so, are they able to distribute that aid if the president and the secretary of defense are opposed to the aid?
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### Author:  [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)
#### Post date: [November 28, 2024, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-congress-pass-funding-for-ukrainian-aid-and-distribute-that-funding-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-participate/1010898/2 "2024-11-28T04:56:53Z")
Short answer: Yes. Trump can ask Congress to rescind funding, but they have no obligation to listen to him, and he cannot refuse to spend money that has been allocated.
> **[Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act of 1974](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Budget_and_Impoundment_Control_Act_of_1974)**
>
> The Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act of 1974 (Pub. L. 93–344, 88 Stat. 297, 2 U.S.C. §§ 601–688) is a United States federal law that governs the role of the Congress in the United States budget process.
> Titles I through IX of the law are also known as the Congressional Budget Act of 1974. Title II created the Congressional Budget Office. Title III governs the procedures by which Congress annually adopts a budget resolution, a concurrent resolution that is not signed by the Pr...
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### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [November 28, 2024, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-congress-pass-funding-for-ukrainian-aid-and-distribute-that-funding-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-participate/1010898/3 "2024-11-28T06:06:47Z")
The only recourse the Congress would have if he refuses to disburse the funds is to impeach him.
I’m seeing a pattern here.
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### Author:  [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)
#### Post date: [November 28, 2024, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-congress-pass-funding-for-ukrainian-aid-and-distribute-that-funding-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-participate/1010898/4 "2024-11-28T06:09:45Z")
> [@Monty](#):
>
> The only recourse the Congress would have if he refuses to disburse the funds is to impeach him.
Or sue. You know, like the Republicans did when Biden tried the exact same thing.
> **[Attorney General Ken Paxton Prevails Over Biden’s Unlawful Attempt to...](https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/news/releases/attorney-general-ken-paxton-prevails-over-bidens-unlawful-attempt-redirect-money-away-border-wall)**
>
> Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton has secured a preliminary injunction against an attempt by the Biden Administration to illegally redirect statutorily obligated funds away from the construction of a border wall.
[https://ago.mo.gov/attorney-general-bailey-obtains-court-order-blocking-joe-biden-from-illegally-diverting-funds-away-from-building-the-border-wall/](https://ago.mo.gov/attorney-general-bailey-obtains-court-order-blocking-joe-biden-from-illegally-diverting-funds-away-from-building-the-border-wall/)
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### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [November 28, 2024, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-congress-pass-funding-for-ukrainian-aid-and-distribute-that-funding-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-participate/1010898/5 "2024-11-28T08:00:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> and he cannot refuse to spend money that has been allocated.
… but what if he did?
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [November 28, 2024, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-congress-pass-funding-for-ukrainian-aid-and-distribute-that-funding-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-participate/1010898/6 "2024-11-28T08:22:53Z")
I had the same question too. Since Trump would be Commander in Chief, then, regardless of what Congress says, couldn’t he just order the US military, “No, **don’t** transport those Congress-authorized Abrams tanks to Ukraine?”
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### Author:  [@fedman1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman1)
#### Post date: [November 28, 2024, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-congress-pass-funding-for-ukrainian-aid-and-distribute-that-funding-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-participate/1010898/7 "2024-11-28T10:36:01Z")
actually, I read recently that Trump has legal ability to refuse to spend funds and then Impound them
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### Author:  [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)
#### Post date: [November 28, 2024, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-congress-pass-funding-for-ukrainian-aid-and-distribute-that-funding-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-participate/1010898/8 "2024-11-28T12:55:23Z")
I think Trump will test to see what he can get away with this time, whether Congress approves or not. The answer is likely we’ll have to wait and see what happens.
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### Author:  [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)
#### Post date: [November 28, 2024, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-congress-pass-funding-for-ukrainian-aid-and-distribute-that-funding-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-participate/1010898/9 "2024-11-28T16:53:37Z")
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> > [@Smapti](#):
> >
> > and he cannot refuse to spend money that has been allocated.
>
> … but what if he did?
Yeah, I’m seeing a pattern.
Even if someone sued trump and won forcing him to disperse Ukranian funding, trump can just ignore the ruling. He’s never faced consequences for breaking the law before so why would it be different now
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### Author:  [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)
#### Post date: [November 28, 2024, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-congress-pass-funding-for-ukrainian-aid-and-distribute-that-funding-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-participate/1010898/10 "2024-11-28T17:14:56Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#):
>
> He’s never faced consequences for breaking the law before so why would it be different now
For the umpteenth time, it is entirely within the power of the judicial system to enjoin the federal government from an illegal act without the president being criminally prosecuted for it. The Supreme Court didn’t have to throw Biden in jail to stop him from forgiving student loans.
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### Author:  [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)
#### Post date: [November 28, 2024, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-congress-pass-funding-for-ukrainian-aid-and-distribute-that-funding-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-participate/1010898/11 "2024-11-28T18:03:01Z")
That doesn’t change the point though. The point is what if the congress and the judicial branch tell Trump to send billions in aid and military hardware to Ukraine, and Trump and his cabinet members say no.
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### Author:  [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)
#### Post date: [November 28, 2024, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-congress-pass-funding-for-ukrainian-aid-and-distribute-that-funding-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-participate/1010898/12 "2024-11-28T18:39:12Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#):
>
> The point is what if the congress and the judicial branch tell Trump to send billions in aid and military hardware to Ukraine, and Trump and his cabinet members say no.
Then the people who are defying the court order on Trump’s behalf will wind up in jail for contempt. Presumptive immunity applies only to the president, not the entire executive branch.
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### Author:  [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)
#### Post date: [November 28, 2024, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-congress-pass-funding-for-ukrainian-aid-and-distribute-that-funding-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-participate/1010898/13 "2024-11-28T18:42:33Z")
Why wouldn’t they be immediately pardoned? Who would arrest them in the first place?
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### Author:  [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)
#### Post date: [November 28, 2024, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-congress-pass-funding-for-ukrainian-aid-and-distribute-that-funding-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-participate/1010898/14 "2024-11-28T18:52:09Z")
> [@Zoobi](#):
>
> Who would arrest them in the first place?
The Marshals Service, one presumes.
> [@Zoobi](#):
>
> Why wouldn’t they be immediately pardoned?
Then the rule of law will have failed and the Balkanization of America will become inevitable as states begin to reject the authority of the federal government. That is, assuming the president even has the power to pardon contempt of court, which appears to be an open question.
Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that.
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### Author:  [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)
#### Post date: [November 28, 2024, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-congress-pass-funding-for-ukrainian-aid-and-distribute-that-funding-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-participate/1010898/15 "2024-11-28T19:13:40Z")
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> > [@Zoobi](#):
> >
> > Who would arrest them in the first place?
>
> The Marshals Service, one presumes.
Is contempt of court an actual criminal offense, simply something a judge can do to someone who refuses to obey?
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### Author:  [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)
#### Post date: [November 28, 2024, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-congress-pass-funding-for-ukrainian-aid-and-distribute-that-funding-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-participate/1010898/16 "2024-11-28T19:16:23Z")
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> The Marshals Service, one presumes.
Which is under the executive branch and the Attorney General, so under orders from Trump. So no arrests would be made in the first place.
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### Author:  [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)
#### Post date: [November 28, 2024, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-congress-pass-funding-for-ukrainian-aid-and-distribute-that-funding-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-participate/1010898/17 "2024-11-28T19:16:42Z")
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> > [@Wesley\_Clark](#):
> >
> > The point is what if the congress and the judicial branch tell Trump to send billions in aid and military hardware to Ukraine, and Trump and his cabinet members say no.
>
> Then the people who are defying the court order on Trump’s behalf will wind up in jail for contempt. Presumptive immunity applies only to the president, not the entire executive branch.
I’m not going to hold my breath about anyone in the executive branch facing any accountability for contempt.
> **[Judge finds Donald Trump in contempt for 10th time over gag order and...](https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/06/politics/merchan-trump-gag-order-contempt/index.html)**
>
> Judge Juan Merchan has found former President Donald Trump in contempt for violating the gag order in his hush money trial for the 10th time and said he’ll consider jail time going forward.
> May 6, 2024
>
> Judge Juan Merchan has found former President Donald Trump in contempt for violating the gag order in [his hush money trial](https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-hush-money-trial-05-06-24/index.html) for the 10th time and said he’ll consider jail time going forward.
>
> “Going forward, this court will have to consider a jail sanction,” Merchan said Monday.
>
> “Mr. Trump, it’s important you understand, the last thing I want to do is put you in jail. You are the former president of the United States and possibly the next president as well,” Merchan said.
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### Author:  [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)
#### Post date: [November 28, 2024, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-congress-pass-funding-for-ukrainian-aid-and-distribute-that-funding-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-participate/1010898/18 "2024-11-28T19:24:33Z")
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> For the umpteenth time, it is entirely within the power of the judicial system to enjoin the federal government from an illegal act without the president being criminally prosecuted for it. The Supreme Court didn’t have to throw Biden in jail to stop him from forgiving student loans.
Biden cares about court (and Court) rulings. Trump doesn’t. The “power of the judicial system to enjoin the federal government from an illegal act” rests solely on the willingness of the individuals making up that federal government to comply with the injunction.
If they’re not willing, then how would The Judicial system enforce its will? As noted elsewhere, the US Marshals Service is an agency of the DOJ and thus operates at the direction of the Attorney General. Do you really think that Pam Bondi (or whoever gets that job) would defy Donald Trump?
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> Then the rule of law will have failed and the Balkanization of America will become inevitable as states begin to reject the authority of the federal government.
Trump has far more firepower at his command than do the governors of blue states.
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### Author:  [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)
#### Post date: [November 28, 2024, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-congress-pass-funding-for-ukrainian-aid-and-distribute-that-funding-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-participate/1010898/19 "2024-11-28T19:25:38Z")
> [@Zoobi](#):
>
> So no arrests would be made in the first place.
Then the court can simply fine them several thousand dollars every day until they comply with the court order.
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### Author:  [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)
#### Post date: [November 28, 2024, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-congress-pass-funding-for-ukrainian-aid-and-distribute-that-funding-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-participate/1010898/20 "2024-11-28T19:28:17Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#):
>
> Biden cares about court (and Court) rulings. Trump doesn’t. The “power of the judicial system to enjoin the federal government from an illegal act” rests solely on the willingness of the individuals making up that federal government to comply with the injunction.
>
> If they’re not willing, then how would The Judicial system enforce its will? As noted elsewhere, the Marshal Service is an agency of the DOJ and thus operates at the direction of the Attorney General. Do you really think that Pam Bondi (or whoever gets that job) would defy Donald Trump?
Remind me what happened during Trump’s first term when the courts ruled against him. Did he do whatever he wanted anyway and order the executive branch to defy court orders and pardon everyone who committed contempt?
No. He complied and then whined about it on Twitter.
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