# Can Democrats actually stop the nomination of Brett Kavanaugh? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 4, 2018, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733 "2018-09-04T12:49:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 142
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/2821 "2018-09-23T23:59:35Z")
Accuser’s name is Deborah Ramirez. From the article: > [@](#): > > Ramirez said that, when both she and Kavanaugh were freshmen at Yale, she was invited by a friend on the women’s soccer team to a dorm-room party. She recalled that the party took place in a suite at Lawrance Hall, in the part of Yale known as the Old Campus, and that a small group of students decided to play a drinking game together. “We were sitting in a circle,” she said. “People would pick who drank.” Ramirez was chosen repeatedly, she said, and quickly became inebriated. At one point, she said, a male student pointed a gag plastic penis in her direction. Later, she said, she was on the floor, foggy and slurring her words as that male student and another stood nearby. (Ramirez identified the two male onlookers, but, at her request, The New Yorker is not naming them.) > > A third male student then exposed himself to her. “I remember a penis being in front of my face,” she said. “I knew that’s not what I wanted, even in that state of mind.” She recalled remarking, “That’s not a real penis,” and the other students laughing at her confusion and taunting her, one encouraging her to “kiss it.” She said that she pushed the person away, touching it in the process. Ramirez, who was raised a devout Catholic in Connecticut, said that she was shaken. “I wasn’t going to touch a penis until I was married,” she said. “I was embarrassed and ashamed and humiliated.” She remembers Kavanaugh standing to her right and laughing, pulling up his pants. “Brett was laughing,” she said. “I can still see his face, and his hips coming forward, like when you pull up your pants.” She recalled another male student shouting about the incident. “Somebody yelled down the hall, ‘Brett Kavanaugh just put his penis in Debbie’s face,’ ” she said. “It was his full name. I don’t think it was just ‘Brett.’ And I remember hearing and being mortified that this was out there.” > > Ramirez acknowledged that there are significant gaps in her memories of the evening, and that, if she ever presents her story to the F.B.I. or members of the Senate, she will inevitably be pressed on her motivation for coming forward after so many years, and questioned about her memory, given her drinking at the party. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/2822 "2018-09-24T00:00:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, but if you said “My head still hurts, but I think it might have been at one of these five intersections, and I remember the face of who did it, and his name is Trent Gavenaw, and his friend Bart Juror was there too, and these three others were nearby when it happened”, then the cops would be pretty likely to go check out those intersections, interview Trent Gavenaw and Bart Juror and the possible witnesses, and, you know, gather evidence. Yes, you do this when it happened. She didn’t. There was never a complaint. 36 years later she still hasn’t made a complaint. She is liable for her accusations. What part of this don’t you understand? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/2823 "2018-09-24T00:00:52Z")
There is also a third woman. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/2824 "2018-09-24T00:02:29Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > There is also a third woman. Do you have a link? ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/2825 "2018-09-24T00:02:49Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Do you still think that it’s the job of the victim to provide evidence? > … As has been repeatedly mentioned testimony is a form of evidence. So, yes, I at least expect a reporting party to speak with investigators. I held that expectation thousands of times when I dispatched police to incidents. It is not the responsibility of that reporting party, whether victim or just a witness, to do the investigating. But generally most investigations need cooperation from someone willing to at least step forward and make a complaint. That means providing evidence, even if the only evidence is the recording of a 9-1-1 call reporting the matter. On some occasions police come upon an incident themselves. In that case they are the reporting party and have a professional obligation in handling the matter. And sometimes a reporting party uses and anonymizing method to report a matter (calling a Crime Stoppers number that promises anonymity) but those are comparatively rare. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/2826 "2018-09-24T00:03:29Z")
PredictIt is up to 67% that Kavanaugh won’t be confirmed by the end of October. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/2827 "2018-09-24T00:03:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you have a link? Michael Avennati saying he represents her. > ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/2828 "2018-09-24T00:04:29Z")
A popular joke going around twitter – “15 more accusers, and the GOP will have to make Kavanaugh President!”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/2829 "2018-09-24T00:05:30Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Michael Avennati saying he represents her. > > [https://twitter.com/michaelavenatti/status/1044006928416825344?s=21](https://twitter.com/michaelavenatti/status/1044006928416825344?s=21) Thanks. That doesn’t tell us much, though, but if it’s significant hopefully more will come out soon. Very high chance, IMO, that Kavanaugh withdraws from consideration in the next few days. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/2830 "2018-09-24T00:07:11Z")
> [@The Article](#): > > In her initial conversations with The New Yorker, she was reluctant to characterize Kavanaugh’s role in the alleged incident with certainty. After six days of carefully assessing her memories and consulting with her attorney, Ramirez said that she felt confident enough of her recollections to say that she remembers Kavanaugh had exposed himself at a drunken dormitory party, thrust his penis in her face, and caused her to touch it without her consent as she pushed him away. Ramirez is now calling for the F.B.I. to investigate Kavanaugh’s role in the incident. “I would think an F.B.I. investigation would be warranted,” she said. So she was drunk and as of six days ago had no sufficient recollection of the event from the 1980s, yet after “assessing” her memories, she now can recall all of these details. Oh, and surprise, she wants an FBI investigation. I’ll bet she is a conservative Republican who would otherwise support Kavanaugh. If the Republicans allow this shit to stick, they will never confirm another Supreme Court justice again! The playbook is out in the open and they should not let the left use it. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/2831 "2018-09-24T00:08:32Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Michael Avennati saying he represents her. > > [https://twitter.com/michaelavenatti/status/1044006928416825344?s=21](https://twitter.com/michaelavenatti/status/1044006928416825344?s=21) The top tweet from him is “My client is not Deborah Ramirez.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/2832 "2018-09-24T00:08:42Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > So she was drunk and as of six days ago had no sufficient recollection of the event from the 1980s, yet after “assessing” her memories, she now can recall all of these details. Oh, and surprise, she wants an FBI investigation. I’ll bet she is a conservative Republican who would otherwise support Kavanaugh. > > If the Republicans allow this shit to stick, they will never confirm another Supreme Court justice again! The playbook is out in the open and they should not let the left use it. Yes, when shadowy operators manufacture allegations, they make sure the accuser talks about how drunk they were and how their memory is not perfectly clear. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/2833 "2018-09-24T00:09:18Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > The top tweet from him is “My client is not Deborah Ramirez.” Exactly ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/2834 "2018-09-24T00:09:43Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > The top tweet from him is “My client is not Deborah Ramirez.” That’s the third woman, not Ramirez. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/2835 "2018-09-24T00:10:01Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > As has been repeatedly mentioned testimony is a form of evidence. So, yes, I at least expect a reporting party to speak with investigators. That’s certainly the expectation, but people are routinely prosecuted with or without victim cooperation. Simple example: domestic violence incidents. More importantly: It is not the job of the victim to gather evidence. Period. (Though that is a common misconception among the ignorant.) ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/2836 "2018-09-24T00:14:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > None of Ford’s friends back up her statement. Her own Senator (a woman) did not think it important or believable enough to bring it up during the hearings. This isn’t even a response to my post, what I said is that many in this thread, and many in congress, have said that they don’t care, that even if the allegations are 100% true, they would still support the confirmation. So, even if we dug up some old home video footage of him ambushing her in the hallway, shoving her into a room, turning on loud music, shoving her to the bed and ripping at her clothing, while stifling her screams, they would still support the confirmation. They don’t see sexual assault as that big a deal, they even come from the standpoint of “who hasn’t done that?” Well, you know who hasn’t done that? Lots and lots of people. I can count on the toes of one hand how many times I have done that. If you think that such things are normal, and that it is just boys being boys, and that it was just a drunk teenager, then you are defending rape as a legitimate activity. Though I believe her, I can see legitimate reasons to doubt her story, and I don’t know that we will ever know the entire truth of the matter. But there is no legitimacy to defending the alleged actions. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/2837 "2018-09-24T00:21:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Second accuser has come forward, this time about Kavanaugh’s college years: > > [Senate Democrats Investigate a New Allegation of Sexual Misconduct, from the Supreme Court Nominee Brett Kavanaugh’s College Years, by His Yale Classmate Deborah Ramirez | The New Yorker](https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/senate-democrats-investigate-a-new-allegation-of-sexual-misconduct-from-the-supreme-court-nominee-brett-kavanaughs-college-years-deborah-ramirez) > > Haven’t read it yet. Was just posted minutes ago. Most important question: Did Kavanaugh’s doppelganger attend Yale? And of course there are more incidents. Rapists don’t quit after high school. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/2838 "2018-09-24T00:21:55Z")
So, from Kavanaugh’s perspective, his chief task is to persuade a handful of fence-sitting Senators that there’s no risk that in voting to confirm, it might be later revealed that they voted for an attempted rapist who had not been sufficiently investigated. What’s the best way to do that? ISTM that the best way would be to ask for objective third party investigators to look at absolutely everything again – to say “I have nothing to hide, please look into everything about me, including talking to Mark Judge and any others identified by the accuser(s)”. But ISTM that the method he’s chosen is “deny”, and that’s about it. We’ll see what happens here, but that’s the task of Kavanaugh and his supporters – convince skeptical/cautious Senators that there’s no risk in voting to confirm him. It’s not a criminal proceeding, it’s a political proceeding. I think it’s reasonable to suspect that his choice of strategy to accomplish this might be at least somewhat related to his understanding of the facts of the accusations. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/2839 "2018-09-24T00:21:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Second accuser has come forward, this time about Kavanaugh’s college years: > > [Senate Democrats Investigate a New Allegation of Sexual Misconduct, from the Supreme Court Nominee Brett Kavanaugh’s College Years, by His Yale Classmate Deborah Ramirez | The New Yorker](https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/senate-democrats-investigate-a-new-allegation-of-sexual-misconduct-from-the-supreme-court-nominee-brett-kavanaughs-college-years-deborah-ramirez) > > Haven’t read it yet. Was just posted minutes ago. I found this bit rather enlightening: > [@](#): > > A classmate of Ramirez’s, who declined to be identified because of the partisan battle over Kavanaugh’s nomination, said that another student told him about the incident either on the night of the party or in the next day or two. The classmate said that he is “one hundred per cent sure” that he was told at the time that Kavanaugh was the student who exposed himself to Ramirez. He independently recalled many of the same details offered by Ramirez, including that a male student had encouraged Kavanaugh as he exposed himself. The classmate, like Ramirez, recalled that the party took place in a common room on the first floor in Entryway B of Lawrance Hall, during their freshman year. “I’ve known this all along,” he said. “It’s been on my mind all these years when his name came up. It was a big deal.” \*\*The story stayed with him, he said, because it was disturbing and seemed outside the bounds of typically acceptable behavior, even during heavy drinking at parties on campus. \*\*The classmate said that he had been shocked, but not necessarily surprised, because the social group to which Kavanaugh belonged often drank to excess. He recalled Kavanaugh as “relatively shy” until he drank, at which point he said that Kavanaugh could become “aggressive and even belligerent. So Ramirez has someone who backs up her story, and it’s a (gasp) man. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/2840 "2018-09-24T00:25:22Z")
According to that latest article, Republican staffers have known about the second accuser for about a week, and their reaction was _calling for an acceleration of the confirmation timetable_. Which says a lot about what Republican DC insiders think about how accusations of sexual assault and rape ought to be handled. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733.md?page=141) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733.md?page=143)