# Can Democrats actually stop the nomination of Brett Kavanaugh? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 4, 2018, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733 "2018-09-04T12:49:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 161
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3201 "2018-09-24T20:43:02Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Right. In 1982, that was called “trying to get laid.” That’s what it was called. BY RAPISTS. When you try to get laid by yanking someone into a room, holding them down, and stifling their screams, even back in the ancient days of 36 years ago, people knew that that was rape. Holy Christ, dude. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3202 "2018-09-24T20:45:02Z")
See again…there is no open dialogue on this. Just 2018 attitudes transposed onto 1982. We can’t have a discussion. Maybe started another Pit thread or two. ANYTHING but have a reasonable discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3203 "2018-09-24T20:46:06Z")
She. Thought. She. Was. Going. To. Die. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3204 "2018-09-24T20:47:05Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > She. Thought. She. Was. Going. To. Die. So she says 36 years later. Nobody, including you, knows what happened in that room, even if there was a room. Be fucking reasonable here and not just ride the left’s talking points. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3205 "2018-09-24T20:48:31Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Where is the shame is saying _“That drunk bastard tried to rape me but I fought him off!”_? It could be the fact that there are many hateful people in the world who would suggest they should feel shame. Here are a couple of random examples. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > feeling shame or apprehension about her parents finding out she’d been at a party involving booze, boys and no adult supervision > > \ > > What responsible parent wouldn’t disapprove of their 15-year-old daughter getting herself into such a situation, and what child of that age wouldn’t be apprehensive or fearful of being found out if they had?. And how about this blast from the past? > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Ford may have felt shame for having put herself in the position where such an attack could occur. She was underage, in a swim suit, at a party where alcohol was flowing, there was no adult supervision, and with boys who were known to become sexually aggressive when drinking. I can certainly see how she would feel a certain sense of responsibility for what happened to her If you can read the #whyididntreport thread in the Pit and not feel terrible, there’s no discussing these issues with you. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3206 "2018-09-24T20:49:01Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > So she says 36 years later. Nobody, including you, knows what happened in that room, even if there was a room. Be fucking reasonable here and not just ride the left’s talking points. Yeah. I’m being unreasonable. Right. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3207 "2018-09-24T20:49:50Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > See again…there is no open dialogue on this. Just 2018 attitudes transposed onto 1982. We can’t have a discussion. Maybe started another Pit thread or two. ANYTHING but have a reasonable discussion. Ultravires, help me out here. To the best of your knowledge, were there women around in 1982? Just yes or no on this one. If you believe that women existed back in 1982, do you think the majority of women considered these behaviors (again, we’re talking about yanking someone into a room, holding them down, and stifling their screams so that you could penetrate them) just “trying to get laid”? Or do you think that women of the time might, EVEN WAY BACK IN THE NINETEEN MOTHERFUCKING EIGHTIES, have had some alternative descriptions of that behavior? Because those of us who are appalled by what you’re saying aren’t just putting modern values on the past. We’re saying that your attempts to normalize those past crimes are themselves travesties. We’re saying that we were alive back then, and those who were teenagers in the eighties (full disclosure, I was a teen in the late eighties, not the early eighties) knew that you could try to get laid, BUT NOT BY STIFLING THE SCREAMS OF YOUR SEXUAL PARTNER SO SHE COULDN’T GET HELP. There’s a reason we can’t have a reasonable discussion here, but it’s not because we’re so politically correct. The low fucking bar to having a reasonable discussion is that nobody in the discussion is equating violent rape attempts to trying to get laid. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3208 "2018-09-24T20:50:24Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > See again…there is no open dialogue on this. Just 2018 attitudes transposed onto 1982. We can’t have a discussion. Maybe started another Pit thread or two. ANYTHING but have a reasonable discussion. For some attitudes, “having a discussion” is impossible. Describing slavery as merely economics and labor strategy is one. Describing the Holocaust as a reasonable response to various actions by Jews would be another. And describing attempted rape as merely “trying to get laid” counts as well. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3209 "2018-09-24T20:52:00Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > See again…there is no open dialogue on this. Just 2018 attitudes transposed onto 1982. We can’t have a discussion. Maybe started another Pit thread or two. ANYTHING but have a reasonable discussion. Back in the good ole days, right? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3210 "2018-09-24T20:52:09Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > This Is an illustration of why one needs to read and watch things outside ones comfort zone. The GOP bass has been very angry on this issue and is itching for a fight. He has given it to them. > Even if they lose they can use the anger over it to restore party disicipline in the ranks and get the base fired up. The base is not large enough to offset the negative approvals among independents and moderates, so turning everything over to them is political suicide. Which exactly is why it feels like we’re watching the GOP jump off a cliff. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3211 "2018-09-24T20:52:21Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Report: Martha MacCallum interviewing Kavanaugh and his wife live tonight on FOX at 7pm. Kavanaugh: “I’m not going anywhere” (wife by his side supporting him) ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3212 "2018-09-24T20:54:51Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > Yeah. I’m being unreasonable. Right. Do you personally know this woman? I don’t either. How can any of us say that she is a truthful person or a liar? How can you give a one sentence answer about she thought she would die based upon a 36 year old allegation from a person who for all you know could be the craziest person who ever lived? Or the biggest liar or attention whore that ever lived? I’m being reserved and withholding judgment. And I’m not willing to dive into this witchcraft hysteria without some sort of independent corroboration of her story. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3213 "2018-09-24T20:54:59Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > See again…there is no open dialogue on this. Just 2018 attitudes transposed onto 1982. We can’t have a discussion. Maybe started another Pit thread or two. ANYTHING but have a reasonable discussion. Back in the mid 1960s, when 2 dudes ganged up on a third dude, it wasn’t considered a fair fight. Back in the mid 1960s, when 2 dudes grabbed a girl, forced her into a room, covered her mouth their hand, and turned up the music so folks downstairs wouldn’t hear her screams… such scenarios weren’t considered acceptable in the movies. It wouldn’t be consistent with the Motion Picture Production Code. **Getting reasonable** UltraVires: I contest your characterization of 1982’s social mores. Do you have any evidence to back it up? Or are you merely reporting your perceptions of them at the time? ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3214 "2018-09-24T20:55:35Z")
See, the wee little problem here is that there is no difference between 1982 and 2018, in many men’s minds. There has been no change at all. UltraVires being exhibit Z. So that “transposed attitudes” argument is, not to put too fine a point on it, full of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3215 "2018-09-24T20:56:23Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > So she says 36 years later. Nobody, including you, knows what happened in that room, even if there was a room. Be fucking reasonable here and not just ride the left’s talking points. I don’t know why I’m bothering with this, but this is the statement you are defending: > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Perhaps the problem lies in the fact that I don’t think what she alleges to have happened to her is all that serious. One of the things she alleges to have happened is that she thought she might be killed. The point you’re defending is not about what actually happened or the philosophical knowability of the truth. It’s about what she alleges to have happened and that includes her fearing for her own life during the attack. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3216 "2018-09-24T20:58:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Ultravires, help me out here. To the best of your knowledge, were there women around in 1982? Just yes or no on this one. > > If you believe that women existed back in 1982, do you think the majority of women considered these behaviors (again, we’re talking about yanking someone into a room, holding them down, and stifling their screams so that you could penetrate them) just “trying to get laid”? Or do you think that women of the time might, EVEN WAY BACK IN THE NINETEEN MOTHERFUCKING EIGHTIES, have had some alternative descriptions of that behavior? > > Because those of us who are appalled by what you’re saying aren’t just putting modern values on the past. We’re saying that your attempts to normalize those past crimes are themselves travesties. We’re saying that we were alive back then, and those who were teenagers in the eighties (full disclosure, I was a teen in the late eighties, not the early eighties) knew that you could try to get laid, BUT NOT BY STIFLING THE SCREAMS OF YOUR SEXUAL PARTNER SO SHE COULDN’T GET HELP. > > There’s a reason we can’t have a reasonable discussion here, but it’s not because we’re so politically correct. The low fucking bar to having a reasonable discussion is that nobody in the discussion is equating violent rape attempts to trying to get laid. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > For some attitudes, “having a discussion” is impossible. Describing slavery as merely economics and labor strategy is one. Describing the Holocaust as a reasonable response to various actions by Jews would be another. And describing attempted rape as merely “trying to get laid” counts as well. Again, both of you are assuming that her 36 year old memory is absolutely true to the finest of detail. As a Democratic legislator in MD said, there is no proof of that. Perhaps it was a drunken attempt at consensual sex; perhaps it didn’t happen at all; perhaps it happened just like she said. None of us know for both of you to be making such straightforward statements. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3217 "2018-09-24T21:00:33Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I think you’re right that such events were fairly commonplace. I’m curious how many of them you were either responsible for, or were aware of at the time but did nothing about. Well you see, in those days people were both more realistic about life and they could cope with things. It simply never occurred to the girls that anything morally wrong was going on, boys were gonna go for it and that’s just the way life was. And the girls set the limits as to how far the guys could go. In the event some guy got too drunk or tried too hard, the girl in question would possibly, depending on how far things went and how much she liked him otherwise, put a stop to it and think him either as an asshole or merely as someone who got carried away, but in either event she wouldn’t think some great moral outrage had occurred. With regard to my own experience, I never saw or was aware of anything that would have required my intervention. Anytime there was more than one couple involved in anything I knew anything about, it was all consensual and everyone was having a good time. And believe it or not, girls at the time were pretty effective at stopping things should they feel things were getting out of hand. They weren’t the terrified shrinking violets that today’s victimhood ideology has created. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m 100% certain that the common reaction of the girls was to forget about it. If you have any interest at all in educating yourself, consider listening to women who account, today, how they were assaulted as children. Sorry, but I don’t see much of an equivalence to be drawn from adult-on-child child abuse to gropings between teenagers at an underage drinking party. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3218 "2018-09-24T21:01:10Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Again, both of you are assuming that her 36 year old memory is absolutely true to the finest of detail. As a Democratic legislator in MD said, there is no proof of that. Perhaps it was a drunken attempt at consensual sex; perhaps it didn’t happen at all; perhaps it happened just like she said. None of us know for both of you to be making such straightforward statements. I’m not talking about Kavanaugh – I’m talking about (and being highly, highly critical of) the assertion that attempted rape can be reasonably described as “trying to get laid”, whether in the 80s, the dark ages, or today. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3219 "2018-09-24T21:04:01Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > … Be fucking reasonable here and not just ride the left’s talking points. You ask too much. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3220 "2018-09-24T21:07:54Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > She. Thought. She. Was. Going. To. Die. > [@UltraVires](#): > > So she says 36 years later. Nitpick. That wasn’t Dr. Ford’s claim. She said, “I thought he might inadvertently kill me,” which is a little different. > [@UltraVires](#): > > Again, both of you are assuming that her 36 year old memory is absolutely true to the finest of detail. So you retract your claim that her account, as stated, was consistent with 1982 sexual mores? And you agree that if what she said is true, Kavanaugh is properly characterized as a sexual assaulter, even by 1982 standards? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733.md?page=160) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733.md?page=162)