# Can Democrats actually stop the nomination of Brett Kavanaugh? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 4, 2018, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733 "2018-09-04T12:49:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 175
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3481 "2018-09-25T20:01:43Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I don’t see a way that even a “misunderstanding” doesn’t disqualify him. He’s closed every door except the “she’s a liar” one. He still has the weaselly she might be telling the truth but it was a different dude door. ETA: Oops, I see this has been addressed. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3482 "2018-09-25T20:03:50Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Yeah, maybe we should get the FBI or someone to dig into both women’s stories and find out what they can. > > And while they’re at it, figure out where Kavanaugh got his money, and where his debt went.At this point, it’s pretty hard not to believe. When one side wants to find the truth, and one side wants to keep it buried and rush to a vote, I’d be predisposed to believe the first side before I had any idea what it was about. > > Back in the spring of 1973, it was pretty obvious that Nixon was guilty because he was _acting_ guilty. I was 19, but I could look back at my own childhood and say, “this is how I acted when I had something to hide that could get me into trouble.” Same thing here. I have zero problem with having the FBI investigate this whole thing or check out both stories. I don’t happen to think it will find much, but you never know, and I’m good with them being tasked to check them out. Hell, I’m good with setting Kavanaugh aside at this point and having Trump trot out his next contestant…or waiting until the FBI does their investigation…or putting this whole thing off until after the November elections. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3483 "2018-09-25T20:04:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Perhaps **XT** should have said that maybe neither one is lying. There is his side of the story and her side of the story and “the truth”. I suspect neither one is telling “the truth” and although I want an investigation to be done, even that is not going to tell us what “the truth” is-- that is, a factual account of what actually happened. The best we can hope for is it can tell us which story is more likely to be closest to the the truth. But even that is a long, long shot. I like the post and tell people this all the time. I use “gods truth”, but same difference. You’re never going to get that ever, though. It’s not possible, because, like you point out, the best you can get is people’s perception of “the truth.” We can figure this out, though. She claims Kavanaugh shoved her onto a bed, tried to take his clothes off, and put his hand over her mouth - while Judge was in the room. Kavanaugh denies it completely, and has now denied the possibility that he could be have forgotten the incident (immediately because of alcohol or otherwhise). His position does not leave the possibility that he did even remotely like what Ford is claiming occurred. That’s the only truth we need to figure out now - the basic gist. The specific details don’t really matter. We don’t need details to determine whether that basic fundamental incident happened. You’re either going to believe her or believe him (or neither I suppose). ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3484 "2018-09-25T20:04:52Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Pretty sure everyone’s abandoned that particular defense. Which is fine, but Kavanaugh hasn’t “closed [the] door” on the possibility of it. During the FOX interview he said this: > [@](#): > > What I know is the truth. And the truth is, I’ve never sexually assaulted anyone in high school or otherwise. **I am not questioning and have not questioned that perhaps Dr. Ford at some point in her life was sexually assaulted by someone in some place**. But what I know is I’ve never sexually assaulted anyone in high school or at any time in my life — ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3485 "2018-09-25T20:06:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Perhaps **XT** should have said that maybe neither one is lying. There is his side of the story and her side of the story and “the truth”. I suspect neither one is telling “the truth” and although I want an investigation to be done, even that is not going to tell us what “the truth” is-- that is, a factual account of what actually happened. The best we can hope for is it can tell us which story is more likely to be closest to the the truth. But even that is a long, long shot. I am totally on board with hearing the the stories of everyone involved. Hell, subpoena everybody Ford says was at the party as far as I’m concerned. I don’t expect their memory to come back but lets get them under oath saying that. I think it’s quite possible something bad happened to Ford at a time/date/location she doesn’t remember. I think it’s possible it may not be exactly what she remembers, or that it even involved Kavenaugh. I also think it’s quite possible Kavenaugh has no more memory of this than anybody else mentioned even if it _did_ happen. Or maybe he does remember and is a liar. If that can be proven with greater than 50% certainty (which ONE corroborating contemporary witness would provide), I’d say he should step down. That hasn’t happened. Yet. If Kavenaugh does go down for this, I want him to go down for what happened. Not for what might have happened. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3486 "2018-09-25T20:13:13Z")
Interesting [article from Slate](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/09/brett-kavanaugh-allegations-yearbook-male-bonding.html), talking about how Kavanaugh’s behavior was consistent with a kid desperate for male approval. It also points out something I missed–that both of the women Kavanaugh attacked remember him laughing during the attack. That’s curiously consistent. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3487 "2018-09-25T20:26:38Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Interesting [article from Slate](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/09/brett-kavanaugh-allegations-yearbook-male-bonding.html), talking about how Kavanaugh’s behavior was consistent with a kid desperate for male approval. It also points out something I missed–that both of the women Kavanaugh attacked remember him laughing during the attack. That’s curiously consistent. I’m reminded of what **DSeid** said about Kavanaugh playing the role of the toady to the 80’s high school movie villain. He does comes across that way. Not a leader, but a follower. He will do whatever it takes to get that addaboy from his peers. Which would make him just the guy to put on the SC, if you’re the president or a high ranking member of Congress who wants to influence SC decisions. Hmmmm. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3488 "2018-09-25T20:28:26Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, this happened? He joined a frat that protested the “women’s movement” with “No means yes, yes means anal”? Never mind “participated”, did he tolerate that? What did it take to get the young Mr Kavanaugh to say “Oh, _Hell_, no!”. > > Please tell me its all a bunch of made up shit. Never happened, no such thing. Now! I don’t know if I’ve ever quoted myself, but this is bugging me. Seriously, literally, WTF? Suppose we got somebody who wants to be on the highest Court, and we find that he was in a white supremacist group in college. I’m open-minded, I am willing to listen. Did he repent? Has he publicly renounced any such crapola? I did, and I’m sure I’m not the only one here who was raised in a racist culture he did not seriously question until he knew better. My mind took a dump, I wiped my brain-hole, and adios, motherfucker! to _that_ shit! Surprising, how easy that can be when you find out you’re totally wrong, isn’t it? But this isn’t racism, is it, this is women’s rights. So, he gets a pass? No personal renunciations, no acts of repentance. Not even a “Hey, that was fucked up, dude, forget that! Also, where’s my car?” I can’t be the only person here who noticed this, and/or gives a shit. Go ahead, tell me why this is OK. Lets just boil it down to the best possible case, yeah, his frat did this shit. Did he resign? Did he protest in any way? Did he denounce, renounce and condemn? Did he just shrug his shoulders and say well, heck, they were joking… Anything that might take some of the stink off this? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3489 "2018-09-25T20:29:31Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Interesting [article from Slate](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/09/brett-kavanaugh-allegations-yearbook-male-bonding.html), talking about how Kavanaugh’s behavior was consistent with a kid desperate for male approval. It also points out something I missed–that both of the women Kavanaugh attacked remember him laughing during the attack. That’s curiously consistent. That there is some interesting analysis. Made me immediately think of Donald Trump’s Access Hollywood video, in which he’s trying to impress Billy Bush with his “grab 'em by the pussy” rhetoric. It’s not enough to be that kind of guy in private. You also gotta tell the other felllas you’re that kind of guy. In Kavanaugh’s case, you gotta show them you’re that kind of guy. Because that’s how you get remembered in someone else’s memoir for all eternity. I think where Kavanaugh has messed up is not acknowledging that he, at the very least, put up a “bad boy” facade when he was a young man. We have proof that he played this character, so he needs to quit with the choir boy act. Only truly gullible people are buying it. The more he insists the he was a goody-goody, the more intensely people are going to search for counter-evidence–which doesn’t seem to be that hard to find. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3490 "2018-09-25T20:32:01Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > … Anything that might take some of the stink off this? Were you aware that the chanting happened decades after Kavanaugh attended college? ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3491 "2018-09-25T20:35:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I don’t know if I’ve ever quoted myself, but this is bugging me. Seriously, literally, WTF? > > Suppose we got somebody who wants to be on the highest Court, and we find that he was in a white supremacist group in college. I’m open-minded, I am willing to listen. Did he repent? Has he publicly renounced any such crapola? I did, and I’m sure I’m not the only one here who was raised in a racist culture he did not seriously question until he knew better. My mind took a dump, I wiped my brain-hole, and adios, motherfucker! to _that_ shit! > > Surprising, how easy that can be when you find out you’re totally wrong, isn’t it? > > But this isn’t racism, is it, this is women’s rights. So, he gets a pass? No personal renunciations, no acts of repentance. Not even a “Hey, that was fucked up, dude, forget that! Also, where’s my car?” > > I can’t be the only person here who noticed this, and/or gives a shit. Go ahead, tell me why this is OK. Lets just boil it down to the best possible case, yeah, his frat did this shit. Did he resign? Did he protest in any way? Did he denounce, renounce and condemn? Did he just shrug his shoulders and say well, heck, they were joking… > > Anything that might take some of the stink off this? Um, I don’t know that I’d compare a 1980’s fraternity to the KKK or whatever. What is it his frat did that he is\* confirmed\* to have participated in? Something along the lines of 1980 hit comedies _Animal House_, or _Revenge of the Nerds_? Or worse? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3492 "2018-09-25T20:38:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Were you aware that the chanting happened decades after Kavanaugh attended college? Well, twenty years, so _two_ decades, seeing as how you would like to squeeze as much out of that as you can… But, anyway, **Hurr** says “OK, no prob”? Or what, perzackly? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3493 "2018-09-25T20:43:07Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > But Kavanaugh has made statements under oath that means even a misunderstanding makes him a liar. > > Maybe the misunderstanding was that he wasn’t trying to rape her, he was just trying to swat a bee out of her hair—except he’s said that he was never at the party. > > Or maybe he got blackout drunk and doesn’t remember–but he said he’s never been blackout drunk. > > I don’t see a way that even a “misunderstanding” doesn’t disqualify him. He’s closed every door except the “she’s a liar” one. You’ll have to say which specific statement you are referring to if you want me to rebut “he lied”, but you seem to completely discount the idea that Ford was assaulted, but it wasn’t by Kavanaugh. In fact, as has been noted several times already, that is something he has put out there as an “open door”. That’s just one door that isn’t closed. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3494 "2018-09-25T20:44:54Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, twenty years, so _two_ decades, seeing as how you would like to squeeze as much out of that as you can… > > But, anyway, **Hurr** says “OK, no prob”? Or what, perzackly? It was a question for you: Do you know in which year DKE pledges chanted “no means yes, yes means anal”? If you do, and still want to know why “the young Mr Kavanaugh” didn’t oppose those future acts more vigorously, then your post seems non-sensical to me. If you do not know, it would make more sense. So, which is it? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3495 "2018-09-25T20:45:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I don’t know if I’ve ever quoted myself, but this is bugging me. Seriously, literally, WTF? > > Suppose we got somebody who wants to be on the highest Court, and we find that he was in a white supremacist group in college. I’m open-minded, I am willing to listen. Did he repent? Has he publicly renounced any such crapola? I did, and I’m sure I’m not the only one here who was raised in a racist culture he did not seriously question until he knew better. My mind took a dump, I wiped my brain-hole, and adios, motherfucker! to _that_ shit! > > Surprising, how easy that can be when you find out you’re totally wrong, isn’t it? > > But this isn’t racism, is it, this is women’s rights. So, he gets a pass? No personal renunciations, no acts of repentance. Not even a “Hey, that was fucked up, dude, forget that! Also, where’s my car?” > > I can’t be the only person here who noticed this, and/or gives a shit. Go ahead, tell me why this is OK. Lets just boil it down to the best possible case, yeah, his frat did this shit. Did he resign? Did he protest in any way? Did he denounce, renounce and condemn? Did he just shrug his shoulders and say well, heck, they were joking… > > Anything that might take some of the stink off this? From what I’ve read he was not in college anymore when the DKE frat did the “No means yes…” chant. That apparently took place in 2011. The DKE frat did, however, parade across campus in 1985 with a flag made up of co-ed’s panties. He also belonged to the Truth and Courage club, also known as the Tit ‘n’ Clit club. From [Newsweek](https://www.newsweek.com/what-tnc-secret-all-male-society-kavanaugh-joined-yale-1135214): > [@](#): > > TNC was made up of “nice party guys,” former student Kristin Sherry, who attended Yale in the 1980s shortly before Kavanaugh was admitted and knew members of TNC, she told Buzzfeed News in a July interview. “It was a bit of a joke. > > “Other societies were looking for a prestigious family background, or your GPA. Each had their own personalities,” Sherry said, explaining that TNC was mostly “organized around having sex with coeds.” > > As well as being a member of TNC, which remained an all-male group until it dissolved, Kavanaugh was also a member of the fraternity Delta Kappa Epsilon, which received a five-year campus ban after footage emerged of fraternity members standing outside a women’s center and chanting “no means yes, yes means anal” in 2011, long after Kavanaugh had left the university. So apparently, dudes joined the TNC to get laid. Well, except for hizzoner, the virgin Judge K, who joined it for…the nifty crest on the sport coats? Taco Tuesday? The prayer circles? ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3496 "2018-09-25T20:45:37Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Were you aware that the chanting happened decades after Kavanaugh attended college? This happened when he was there: [Brett Kavanaugh’s Yale Fraternity Hoisted A Flag Made Of Women’s Underwear In 1985](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/kavanaugh-fraternity-womens-underwear_us_5ba429aee4b0375f8f9b7ba9) Always a gentleman. Always treated women with respect. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3497 "2018-09-25T20:49:08Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > …So apparently, dudes joined the TNC to get laid. Well, except for hizzoner, the virgin Judge K, who joined it for…the nifty crest on the sport coats? Taco Tuesday? The prayer circles? Something that never looks bad on your permanent record. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3498 "2018-09-25T20:54:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You’ll have to say which specific statement you are referring to if you want me to rebut “he lied”, but you seem to completely discount the idea that Ford was assaulted, but it wasn’t by Kavanaugh. In fact, as has been noted several times already, that is something he has put out there as an “open door”. That’s just one door that isn’t closed. Ford said that she knew Kavanaugh and Judge prior to the attack, which doesn’t leave much room for misidentification. The one time the Republicans tried to play the “it was someone else” card she shut them down quickly. I’d call the “it was someone else” defense just another variant of the “she’s a liar” defense. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3499 "2018-09-25T20:57:12Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > This happened when he was there: [Brett Kavanaugh’s Yale Fraternity Hoisted A Flag Made Of Women’s Underwear In 1985](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/kavanaugh-fraternity-womens-underwear_us_5ba429aee4b0375f8f9b7ba9) > > Always a gentleman. Always treated women with respect. Well, that’s at least a hell-of-a-lot warmer than **elucidator** ’s hand-wringing over “no means yes, yes means anal” decades later. It’s still missing a Kavanaugh personal touch, but warmer. “He was acquainted with some not-so-nice young men” doesn’t quite have the same ring to it. Character assassination by proxy is lame. ETA: who knows though, maybe Avenatti has something really juicy that he’ll release tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/3500 "2018-09-25T20:59:44Z")
I’m all for further investigation of the Ford incident, but I’m not going to rule out SCOTUS appointments for men who were in fraternities in college. Frats weren’t my thing, and I was never in one, but lots of guys were, and everyone that I know of did stupid things like the panty flag and a lot worse. I think that is putting way to fine a filter on this whole process. I understand it makes sense from a political perspective, but that’s it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733.md?page=174) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733.md?page=176)