# Can Democrats actually stop the nomination of Brett Kavanaugh? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 4, 2018, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733 "2018-09-04T12:49:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 98
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/1941 "2018-09-20T15:32:25Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I believe he’s on the Senate Judiciary Committee, [arguing that we shouldn’t have maybe-sexual-abusers in high positions in our government](https://twitter.com/CoryBooker/status/1042467950853275648), without, apparently, a hint of irony. Great so when he starts arguing that holding down a girl, covering her mouth so she can’t scream, while attempting to strip off her clothes is just horseplay, or improper persuasion, or maybe he just wanted to look at her naked body, then you should ask him your important questions. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/1942 "2018-09-20T15:34:07Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Great so when he starts arguing that holding down a girl, covering her mouth so she can’t scream, while attempting to strip off her clothes is just horseplay, or improper persuasion, or maybe he just wanted to look at her naked body, then you should ask him your important questions. Don’t forget lying about it, if the allegations are true, and (unlike Booker) not recognizing and admitting how terrible the behavior was, and how awful society is in its treatment of women with regards to sexual assault and rape. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/1943 "2018-09-20T15:43:18Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > They could still let Kavanaugh testify, if he wishes. Maybe they could do the empty-chair routine like Clint Eastwood. Great idea! It worked out so well for Clint. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/1944 "2018-09-20T15:45:02Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > I wonder if a couple posters here even realize how close to paper towel tube territory they’re getting with shit like “improperly persuade.” It’s fucking disgusting. There is a fundamental rot at the core of these arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/1945 "2018-09-20T15:45:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Sounds like a question for Spartacus. I think it’s cute that you believe this is a winning line of argument. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/1946 "2018-09-20T15:48:09Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Question for iiandyiiii (and others of the same viewpoint): who do you support in the [Minnesota AG race](https://twitter.com/KarenMonahan01/status/1042420992352518144/photo/1)? I’m moderately familiar with Ellison (though not with these allegations other than maybe hearing rumors) but not with the race in general. I won’t support anyone who has a credible allegation of sexual assault/violence against them (haven’t looked at these allegations to see if they qualify), barring a very unusual circumstance in which their sole opponent has even worse credible allegations against them (or strong evidence of severe racism/white supremacism, which I rate in importance as high as sexual assault and rape). So if Ellison were the only candidate with credible allegations against them in this race, and I was a MN voter, then I’d eliminate Ellison as a possibility and compare the remaining candidates and choose one. It’s not particularly hard – I won’t vote for someone with credible allegations of sexual assault against them barring very unusual circumstances. If I could transport myself to '92 or '96 (I wasn’t yet 18), I wouldn’t vote for Bill Clinton. If I’d known about the allegations against Franken in '08, I wouldn’t support Franken (and before the allegations came out against him he was probably my very favorite Senator). Same goes for any candidate with credible allegations of sexual assault against them. Fighting sexual assault and rape (and racism/white supremacism, for which I have a nearly identical philosophy) in society and culture is more important than literally any single partisan concern. Maybe some Republican-leaning partisans can’t seem to wrap their heads around this, but it seems awfully simple to me. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/1947 "2018-09-20T15:48:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Don’t forget lying about it, if the allegations are true, and (unlike Booker) not recognizing and admitting how terrible the behavior was, and how awful society is in its treatment of women with regards to sexual assault and rape. What do you think the odds are of proving the allegations are true? ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/1948 "2018-09-20T15:51:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Don’t forget lying about it, if the allegations are true, and (unlike Booker) not recognizing and admitting how terrible the behavior was, and how awful society is in its treatment of women with regards to sexual assault and rape. And if the allegations are false, and Kavenaugh is telling the truth, how do you propose he refute something that happened at an unspecified time/date/location in the early 1980s? Invent a time machine, with the newly minted Federal Bureau of Investigating Time Police following young Kavenaugh every where he went, undercover, over a period of 3 years? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/1949 "2018-09-20T15:53:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What do you think the odds are of proving the allegations are true? Depends on what “proving” means (and assuming they’re true, of course). Beyond a reasonable doubt? It’d probably take a full FBI investigation including questioning nearly everyone who went to the high schools in question in the early 80s. A preponderance of evidence? Maybe just interviewing Ford, Kavanaugh, and Judge would be enough. Cast enough suspicion to convince a few Republicans to vote “no”? Maybe just interviewing Ford in public. We’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/1950 "2018-09-20T15:56:24Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > And if the allegations are false, and Kavenaugh is telling the truth, how do you propose he refute something that happened at an unspecified time/date/location in the early 1980s? Invent a time machine, with the newly minted Federal Bureau of Investigating Time Police following young Kavenaugh every where he went, undercover, over a period of 3 years? In this society? I doubt he’ll have any need to refute them. Kavanaugh is probably going to win this. If Ford testifies, he might not join the SCOTUS, but he’ll still probably continue to be a prominent judge and very popular jurist among Republicans, which IMO still qualifies as a win. Our society is still so strongly tilted against alleged victims/accusers that alleged perpetrators very rarely have to do anything significant to “clear their names”. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/1951 "2018-09-20T16:05:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In this society? I doubt he’ll have any need to refute them. Kavanaugh is probably going to win this. If Ford testifies, he might not join the SCOTUS, but he’ll still probably continue to be a prominent judge and very popular jurist among Republicans, which IMO still qualifies as a win. Our society is still so strongly tilted against alleged victims/accusers that alleged perpetrators very rarely have to do anything significant to “clear their names”. So, you think, should Kavenaugh achieve SCOUTUS, that everybody is just going to forget about this? I think Clarence Thomas would disagree. Even if he withdrawn, that’s not going to take away the fact that a large portion of the country will _insist_ he did it and “got away with it”, OJ-style, and his family is going to have to bear the brunt of that for the rest of his life. Tell me, how would you feel having to tell your kids that a bunch of people think you tried to rape a girl? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/1952 "2018-09-20T16:08:57Z")
Is this a credible accusation? I think it is. “Proof” of innocence or guilt beyond any reasonable shadow of doubt will likely never be forthcoming, but added to his established lack of complete truthfulness in his performance to date a credible accusation is enough. Rushing past a credible accusation without a reasonable investigation, for perceived political reasons, may have political consequences. Realpolitik here: the odds are great that whoever is appointed and approved for this seat, if not this person, will be as conservative as this one is. **Ashtura** , yeah, you’d think he’d want it investigated to clear his name, at least to say that there was no corroborating evidence. Wonder why he does not call for that? ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/1953 "2018-09-20T16:12:52Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Is this a credible accusation? I think it is. > > “Proof” of innocence or guilt beyond any reasonable shadow of doubt will likely never be forthcoming, but added to his established lack of complete truthfulness in his performance to date a credible accusation is enough. > > Rushing past a credible accusation without a reasonable investigation, for perceived political reasons, may have political consequences. > > Realpolitik here: the odds are great that whoever is appointed and approved for this seat, if not this person, will be as conservative as this one is. Which is why I want to hold a vote (preferably with her testimony) and let the chips fall where they may. Should he not get the spot, I have a feeling I’d like Amy Coney Barrett in his place. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/1954 "2018-09-20T16:20:16Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > And if the allegations are false, and Kavenaugh is telling the truth, how do you propose he refute something that happened at an unspecified time/date/location in the early 1980s? If an investigation shows no contemporaneous accounts or records of the incident, and no pattern of similar behavior (i.e. others accusing him of similar acts), I think most people would accept that. Without an investigation, you’re right, it wouldn’t be convincing. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/1955 "2018-09-20T16:22:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m moderately familiar with Ellison (though not with these allegations other than maybe hearing rumors) but not with the race in general. I won’t support anyone who has a credible allegation of sexual assault/violence against them (haven’t looked at these allegations to see if they qualify), barring a very unusual circumstance in which their sole opponent has even worse credible allegations against them (or strong evidence of severe racism/white supremacism, which I rate in importance as high as sexual assault and rape). > > So if Ellison were the only candidate with credible allegations against them in this race, and I was a MN voter, then I’d eliminate Ellison as a possibility and compare the remaining candidates and choose one. > > It’s not particularly hard – I won’t vote for someone with credible allegations of sexual assault against them barring very unusual circumstances. If I could transport myself to '92 or '96 (I wasn’t yet 18), I wouldn’t vote for Bill Clinton. If I’d known about the allegations against Franken in '08, I wouldn’t support Franken (and before the allegations came out against him he was probably my very favorite Senator). Same goes for any candidate with credible allegations of sexual assault against them. Fighting sexual assault and rape (and racism/white supremacism, for which I have a nearly identical philosophy) in society and culture is more important than literally any single partisan concern. > > Maybe some Republican-leaning partisans can’t seem to wrap their heads around this, but it seems awfully simple to me. Well the reason I directed the question to you is that you persist in attempting to make this a Republican vs Democratic issue, with the Republicans being of course, the supporters of candidates who abuse women. Including this very thread, hence my question now. But your comparison of Republicans vs Democrats is based entirely (IIRC) on cases where Republicans faced the loss of a seat to Democrats while the cases involving Democrats all involved safe Democrat seats. So here’s a case where it’s Ellison running against a Republican (he having won the Democratic primary after these allegations were made). And the allegations seem much more credible than a lot of the other allegations we’ve been discussing. This woman was definitely in a long term relationship with Ellison, and per her therapist’s notes, she told said therapist that she endured years of “emotional and physical abuse” from Ellison. Not to mention the alleged video which set the whole thing off (her son says he found a video on her computer of Ellison violently dragging her off a bed, but she has not produced this video). But on the flip side, Ellison is a progressive hero. It sounds like you’re disinclined to look into this matter. But the thing is that it has a bearing on your refrain that Democrats don’t support such abusers while Republicans do. So it might be worth your attention if you intend to keep repeating this. And further, the important point as to your claim is that regardless of what you personally think - which was admittedly my initial question - what counts is what your fellow-Democrats think and how they act in this regard. Because if they act much like Republicans have acted in comparable circumstances - which to this point is exactly what they’re done - then your argument would seem to go out the window. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/1956 "2018-09-20T16:26:23Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > So, you think, should Kavenaugh achieve SCOUTUS, that everybody is just going to forget about this? I think Clarence Thomas would disagree. Even if he withdrawn, that’s not going to take away the fact that a large portion of the country will _insist_ he did it and “got away with it”, OJ-style, and his family is going to have to bear the brunt of that for the rest of his life. Tell me, how would you feel having to tell your kids that a bunch of people think you tried to rape a girl? If he’s innocent and truly cares most about clearing his name over being confirmed, then he’d advocate for a delay and a full FBI investigation. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/1957 "2018-09-20T16:28:27Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Well the reason I directed the question to you is that you persist in attempting to make this a Republican vs Democratic issue, with the Republicans being of course, the supporters of candidates who abuse women. Including this very thread, hence my question now. > > But your comparison of Republicans vs Democrats is based entirely (IIRC) on cases where Republicans faced the loss of a seat to Democrats while the cases involving Democrats all involved safe Democrat seats. > > So here’s a case where it’s Ellison running against a Republican (he having won the Democratic primary after these allegations were made). And the allegations seem much more credible than a lot of the other allegations we’ve been discussing. This woman was definitely in a long term relationship with Ellison, and per her therapist’s notes, she told said therapist that she endured years of “emotional and physical abuse” from Ellison. Not to mention the alleged video which set the whole thing off (her son says he found a video on her computer of Ellison violently dragging her off a bed, but she has not produced this video). > > But on the flip side, Ellison is a progressive hero. > > It sounds like you’re disinclined to look into this matter. But the thing is that it has a bearing on your refrain that Democrats don’t support such abusers while Republicans do. So it might be worth your attention if you intend to keep repeating this. And further, the important point as to your claim is that regardless of what you personally think - which was admittedly my initial question - what counts is what your fellow-Democrats think and how they act in this regard. Because if they act much like Republicans have acted in comparable circumstances - which to this point is exactly what they’re done - then your argument would seem to go out the window. Most of this doesn’t appear to address what I actually wrote, which was in response to a question about how I personally would approach voting with regards to this issue. Are you asking a different question now? ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/1958 "2018-09-20T16:34:48Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Sounds like a question for Spartacus. > > ETA: what do you think? “kind of consent”? Which encounter do you think a 15 year old girl would rather experience? It’s also convenient that the part you quoted doesn’t include the first part of the description which makes it clear that this was a consensual encounter between friends. Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/1959 "2018-09-20T16:38:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Most of this doesn’t appear to address what I actually wrote, which was in response to a question about how I personally would approach voting with regards to this issue. > > Are you asking a different question now? It’s a follow up question. You ducked answering the question I asked by not addressing the actual Ellison situation and only answering in hypothetical. But my real point was addressed to your broader claim about Republicans and Democrats, so I went to that. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733/1960 "2018-09-20T16:38:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If he’s innocent and truly cares most about clearing his name over being confirmed, then he’d advocate for a delay and a full FBI investigation. Did an FBI investigation clear Clarence’s Thomas’ name? Not in the slightest. They even made an HBO movie about it in 2016, executive produced by Anita Hill herself. _Twenty seven years later._ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733.md?page=97) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-democrats-actually-stop-the-nomination-of-brett-kavanaugh/820733.md?page=99)