# Can Ecuador legally get Assange out of London ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 20, 2012, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ecuador-legally-get-assange-out-of-london/625748 "2012-06-20T13:58:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ecuador-legally-get-assange-out-of-london/625748/21 "2012-06-20T16:04:23Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Well, your comments do not necessarily reflect the common understanding of international law which is in wide and general practice for many generations. I think they do. > [@](#): > > **RNATB** is correct: there are certain aspects of international law that are considered so fundamental and widely practiced that a country can be found to have violated those norms even if the country is not a member to a treaty on that matter. For example, it is a universally accepted proposition among the international community that a country could be held to account for violating international law if it engages in genocide or slavery, even if it hasn’t signed any treaties to that effect. “Could be held to account” does not equal “is bound”. As I pointed out, unless the country considers some law binding on itself, the only remedy is to pressure it into action. And from what I see Great Britain does not consider the OAS laws binding on itself. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ecuador-legally-get-assange-out-of-london/625748/22 "2012-06-20T16:06:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > ETA: the Happold article is a better source, of course, though I still don’t think the UK will unilaterally arrest him. I am sure UK will work with Ecuador to bring this to an amicable resolution. But you can bet that they will not allow Ecuador to “transit” Assange out of the country “unilaterally”. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ecuador-legally-get-assange-out-of-london/625748/23 "2012-06-20T16:10:05Z")
The thing is, there is a _reason_ that strong protections for asylees have become a solid international norm: Everyone wants the capacity to grant asylum if needed, and have that be a meaningful protection. In order for asylum to be useful, it has to confer protection whilst an asylee is in transit. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ecuador-legally-get-assange-out-of-london/625748/24 "2012-06-20T16:14:35Z")
How big are diplomatic bags? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ecuador-legally-get-assange-out-of-london/625748/25 "2012-06-20T16:15:45Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No, they can’t. Once he is granted political asylum he is effectively immune from arrest, even on British soil, as long as he is “in transit”. I don’t think so. If that were true, any country could just ferry anyone they wanted out of any country. Sure didn’t work in China. The U.S. had to get permission to let Chen leave its embassy and travel to the U.S., for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ecuador-legally-get-assange-out-of-london/625748/26 "2012-06-20T16:30:14Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I think they do. > “Could be held to account” does not equal “is bound”. > > As I pointed out, unless the country considers some law binding on itself, the only remedy is to pressure it into action. And from what I see Great Britain does not consider the OAS laws binding on itself. Look, you can believe whatever you want. You can really truly believe that international law is about as consequential as a Bazooka Joe cartoon. But the entirety of the international community, from nation-states to international organizations, accept the concept of states being bound to certain international norms regardless of whether a country has signed a treaty to such effect. It is not a controversial issue at all within the field of law and international relations. The concept has been well-accepted for centuries. It is a verifiable fact that virtually everyone involved in statecraft and diplomacy accepts the concept that you deny exists. You are entitled to your opinion that things should not be that way, but your opinion has no basis in practice. ETA: this does not mean that all treaties are binding on all countries. Go back and read what I wrote previously. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ecuador-legally-get-assange-out-of-london/625748/27 "2012-06-20T16:33:10Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > But the entirety of the international community, from nation-states to international organizations, accept the concept of states being bound to certain international norms regardless of whether a country has signed a treaty to such effect. Give a cite. Where it says that a country is “bound” (note the word) to some treaty when it didn’t sign it and does not consider it binding. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ecuador-legally-get-assange-out-of-london/625748/28 "2012-06-20T16:34:07Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I think they do. > [@](#): > > Give a cite. Where it says that a country is “bound” (note the word) to some treaty when it didn’t sign it and does not consider it binding. You can think whatever you like. However, in GQ your unsupported opinion is irrelevant. [Jus cogens](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peremptory_norm) is a firmly established principle, not that you couldn’t have googled that in three seconds. I pointed you toward the relevant terms earlier. It’s not that the UK is bound to the _treaty_. It’s that they may be bound by the rules in it. > [@](#): > > “Could be held to account” does not equal “is bound”. In the context of international law, it does. The point is enforcement mechanisms are the same whether it’s a treaty or an international norm that is violated. The only real distinction is that a British court might or might not sustain his arrest on the basis of international law if the Ecuadorians are forced to give him up. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > If that were true, any country could just ferry anyone they wanted out of any country. Being able to do something and entitled to do something are different things. I _can_ violate copyright law as much as I want. That doesn’t mean I won’t be sued for doing so. Obviously, the host country has to grant safe conduct in order for the person to leave the embassy grounds. There is no real question that the UK authorities are physically capable of seizing Assange once he leaves the embassy. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ecuador-legally-get-assange-out-of-london/625748/29 "2012-06-20T16:38:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s not that the UK is bound to the _treaty_. It’s that they may be bound by the rules in it. Not if UK doesn’t consider itself bound to those rules. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ecuador-legally-get-assange-out-of-london/625748/30 "2012-06-20T16:41:14Z")
You can’t make things true by posting them repeatedly, I’m afraid. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ecuador-legally-get-assange-out-of-london/625748/31 "2012-06-20T16:41:42Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You can’t make things true by posting them repeatedly, I’m afraid. True. Neither can you. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ecuador-legally-get-assange-out-of-london/625748/32 "2012-06-20T16:42:47Z")
Does anyone want to bet me $20 that Julian Assange is on American soil (in cuffs, naturally) long before he ever sets foot in Ecuador? (and when I say “long before” of course I actually mean before, no semantic games please; This is a serious offer, I will bet anyone who wants to take the wager, payable by money order) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ecuador-legally-get-assange-out-of-london/625748/33 "2012-06-20T16:46:10Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > True. Neither can you. Quite so. However, this being GQ, I am not attempting to answer the OP by posting “nuh uh” repeatedly. Seriously, read [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peremptory_norm) and then tell us why it doesn’t apply. [QUOTE=MPB in Salt Lake] Does anyone want to bet me $20 that Julian Assange is on American soil (in cuffs, naturally) long before he ever sets foot in Ecuador? [/QUOTE] I’ll take a $20 bet that he ends up in some other country than the US. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ecuador-legally-get-assange-out-of-london/625748/34 "2012-06-20T16:51:56Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > How big are diplomatic bags? You stole my joke! ---
**Author:** ![wheresmymind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@wheresmymind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wheresmymind)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ecuador-legally-get-assange-out-of-london/625748/35 "2012-06-20T16:52:23Z")
> [@williambaskerville](#): > > He can’t be arrested in the embassy without violating sovereignty. But the minute he steps foot on the pavement outside it he can be. I doubt his long term plan is to live out his life in the embassy, hence my question as to whether there’s any way to secure him safe passage from the embassy to Ecuador. Couldn’t he just enter a diplomatic vehicle within the embassy, drive to the airport, and hop on an Ecuadorian private plane? Or, could they put him in a body-sized diplomatic pouch? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ecuador-legally-get-assange-out-of-london/625748/36 "2012-06-20T17:02:29Z")
> [@wheresmymind](#): > > Couldn’t he just enter a diplomatic vehicle within the embassy, drive to the airport, and hop on an Ecuadorian private plane? The embassy is really just an apartment, and not on the ground floor either. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ecuador-legally-get-assange-out-of-london/625748/37 "2012-06-20T17:04:16Z")
Gah. And here I thought DicK Cheney had the Asshole of the Decade Award. Assange really gratse on my nerves. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ecuador-legally-get-assange-out-of-london/625748/38 "2012-06-20T17:11:10Z")
> [@wheresmymind](#): > > Couldn’t he just enter a diplomatic vehicle within the embassy, drive to the airport, and hop on an Ecuadorian private plane? Or, could they put him in a body-sized diplomatic pouch? Diplomatic immunity protects people, not things (aside from consular offices and grounds, and properly marked diplomatic bags). The police can pull over a vehicle with diplomatic plates and even search it, subject to local law. They just can’t prosecute the occupants (provided the occupants are entitled to consular protection). ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ecuador-legally-get-assange-out-of-london/625748/39 "2012-06-20T17:11:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Quite so. However, this being GQ, I am not attempting to answer the OP by posting “nuh uh” repeatedly. Seriously, read [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peremptory_norm) and then tell us why it doesn’t apply. Sure. They discuss the case of Michael Domingues. The IACHR claimed that US was bound by jus cogens not to execute him. United States did not consider itself bound. The IACHR report was (and your link agrees) **not-legally binding**. US Supreme Court later banned the execution of juveniles, thus sparing Domingues, but it was not in response to IACHR’s **non-binding** report. Which just proves what I said. “jus cogens” is only binding if the country agrees it is. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ecuador-legally-get-assange-out-of-london/625748/40 "2012-06-20T17:24:23Z")
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