# Can electric cars replace gasoline cars? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 13, 2011, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190 "2011-04-13T02:46:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/201 "2011-04-23T16:43:30Z")
The Volt has a range of 380 miles. It has 50 electric. The rest is on ICE. Most people would not have to use gas at all. They will build SUVs and pickups in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/202 "2011-04-23T17:03:30Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Oh there will be many motivations for buying EVs and PHEV/EREVs besides savings over the course of ownership. Many people _do_ want their vehicle to make a statement about them and are willing to spend a little to do it. Historically that has more often meant people buying huge-ass monstrosities, including SUVs bought by those whose only off-road experience is accidentally riding up the curb at the soccer field, and cars that can go 0 to 60 in nothing flat and hit 120 when the drivers mostly just get speeding tickets going 70. But some want to make a different statement and are willing to pay something to do it. Why else would some dealers be able to gouge so much on the Volt? This first wave of early adopters, paying over MSRP for the Volt, and signing up for the Leaf having never seen one in person, are making their purchase choice more as a statement. They are not so motivated by saving the cost of gas; they want people to know either that they care about our country’s weaning itself off of foreign oil, or about global climate change, or both. I concur that people buy cars to make a statement. But I differ in whether or not the worthy goals of energy efficiency and GHG emissions reductions are considered “cool” enough for anyone outside of the 1-2% “hipster” population. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/203 "2011-04-23T18:30:26Z")
> [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](#): > > Making people stop for a break every two hours or so is probably a nice side-benefit. People need to recharge, too. That would be a big obstacle for me. I used to make my trip to and from college (9 hours) without actually getting out of the driver’s seat. Since most of the trip was in Oregon, I didn’t even have to get out to pump my own gas. Having to stop every hour and a half (100 miles at ~70 mph) for twenty minutes would add an hour and forty minutes to my trip, or maybe an hour thirty, given that I already stop for gas once. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Because why make two separate infrastructure choices? One for battery cars and one for hydrogen cars? I suppose you could do both at the same time but why would you want to? You may not have to. The apparatus for cracking water to make hydrogen isn’t very complicated; people have proposed simply putting it onboard and plugging the car in. Hydrogen is then generated on-board at a regular electric charging station. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/204 "2011-04-23T19:17:10Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > My _opinion_ is that most “DINCs” are not very sensitive to the cost of petrol since they aren’t burdened with the sometimes outrageous costs of raising children, and don’t have all the associated extra automobile trips associated with children. For example, last year petrol costs were roughly 0.21% of our combined income.\* If petrol goes to $12 a gallon is doesn’t really impact us. I confess we feel a bit ignorant sometimes in that we don’t even notice the price when we pull up to the pump.\*\* So buy a Leaf? Maybe if petrol is $20-$30 a gallon, otherwise no. > > - We live almost within sight of work, car poll every single day, our stores are within walking distance, and we just don’t drive that much since we live in the inner suburbs where all the Scary Brown People are. My co-workers who have 30, 40, and 60 mile round-trip commutes obviously have more sensitivity. As an aside, I personally know of three co-workers who commute more than 100 miles per day for work, even though empty, nice, cheap, crime-free houses are within 5 miles of work. They want to “live in the country.” And I have no sympathy for them whatsoever when they tell of spending $200 a _week_ on gas. > > \*\* Yes I’m aware that petrol costs impact the cost of goods and services throughout society but we’re talking about direct costs and the choice of primary mover for individuals. And that’s why I said yuppy DINC, AKA early adopters. People who buy an ipad 2 as a playmate for their ipad. People with children who want a fully functional vehicle that is cost effective would buy a Ford Escape Hybrid. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/205 "2011-04-23T19:20:01Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The Volt has a range of 380 miles. It has 50 electric. The rest is on ICE. Most people would not have to use gas at all. > They will build SUVs and pickups in the future. In the real world is has a range of 35 and the rest is on an ice engine that is less efficient than a standard hybrid. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/206 "2011-04-23T22:00:45Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > That would be a big obstacle for me. I used to make my trip to and from college (9 hours) without actually getting out of the driver’s seat. And I can do 12 hours without resting. I bet some other folks can do 14 or 16. _But we shouldn’t_. My point is that people who do this are engaging in risky behavior. Either from dozing off, white line fever or just plain loss of alertness. Not only is it risky for you, but for the person you might slam into in a head-on collision (sure, maybe one in a thousand chance depending on how much caffeine you’re doped-up on, but it’s an increased risk never the less). I’m not trying to drive this point into the ground and it has only minor relevance to the topic. I’m just saying that a new public mindset of long distance driving that requires occasional breaks is probably a good thing even if it means we have to start planning for more realistic trip times, instead of trying to cram what _should_ be a ten and a half hour drive into nine hours. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/207 "2011-04-24T00:17:44Z")
> [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](#): > > And I can do 12 hours without resting. I bet some other folks can do 14 or 16. _But we shouldn’t_. > > My point is that people who do this are engaging in risky behavior. Either from dozing off, white line fever or just plain loss of alertness. Not only is it risky for you, but for the person you might slam into in a head-on collision (sure, maybe one in a thousand chance depending on how much caffeine you’re doped-up on, but it’s an increased risk never the less). > > I’m not trying to drive this point into the ground and it has only minor relevance to the topic. I’m just saying that a new public mindset of long distance driving that requires occasional breaks is probably a good thing even if it means we have to start planning for more realistic trip times, instead of trying to cram what _should_ be a ten and a half hour drive into nine hours. It’s not that your point has relevance but you would have to take many hours off between recharging a Leaf on a long distance trip. It would be 90 miles and then 4 hrs of charging (if high voltage charging station available). A trip from New York to Los Angeles would normally take 43 hrs of driving but with the leaf that would require 31.4 stops at 4 hrs each or 126 additional hrs or 5.2 days. The longest traveling EV simply cannot be used for distance driving. So in response to this particular thread, it’s a complete fail for this type of driving. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/208 "2011-04-24T17:50:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > In the real world is has a range of 35 and the rest is on an ice engine that is less efficient than a standard hybrid. Not that I have read. The Free Press car writer never needed gas in a week of normal driving. It gets 32 MPH on ICE. That is not bad. But it gets forever on electric. I understand you hate the electrics, but be a little fair. Shouldn’t we compare them to the standard car? That is what they are replacing. The hybrids are autos that are trying to cut down on gas. So you select that as a comparison? Replacing hybrids will come later. Electrics are the future. Sorry you can not see it. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/209 "2011-04-24T18:34:19Z")
**gonz** , those numbers are _fair_. That’s its official ratings: 35 gas-free and 35city/40highway/37combined when on ICE. [In March](http://gm-volt.com/2010/11/24/official-2011-chevrolet-volt-epa-fuel-economy-released/) Volt owners averaged 30 days and 1000 miles between fill-ups and since December (Winter is generally bad for fuel economy for all vehicles) they are averaging 800 miles between fill-ups. The tank is only 9.3 gallons and one assumes they are not running it dry. I figure that comes to averaging about 89 mpg altogether in real world use. And figuring the average 12K miles a year the average Volt driver will buy something like 135 gallons of gas in a year. That’s does not quite hit “not using gas at all”. Its a lot less gas than a similarly powered, sized, and appointed ICE would use but going gas free it aint. **Magiver** , yup, if you need a car to drive from New York to Los Angeles then a pure BEV would be a poor choice. You will be able to travel hundreds of miles round Tenesse with just 20 minute charge stops every 90 miles (coupled with lunch or a bathroom break) and you will be able to take a leisurely scenic tour of the Pacific Northwest along I-5. You’ll be able to meet the needs that most people have of their next car purchase. But if you need your next car purchase to drive cross country then indeed this car fails to meet that need. And of course the perception that many have that they have that need, even though in reality relatively few do, is part of the appeal of the Volt’s approach. ---
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/210 "2011-04-24T19:05:46Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > You’ll be able to meet the needs that most people have of their next car purchase. Which is exactly my plan. I only drive about 10K a year and have 55,000 on my Toyota Camry. 5-7 more years with no payments and it’ll have 100K-120K miles. Perfect to move to a new full-electric while keeping it around for longer trips. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/211 "2011-04-25T02:18:23Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Not that I have read. The Free Press car writer never needed gas in a week of normal driving. It gets 32 MPH on ICE. That is not bad. But it gets forever on electric. > I understand you hate the electrics, but be a little fair. If you understood anything you’d know that I think they will be viable in the future when the power density and charging time improves significantly. > [@gonzomax](#): > > Shouldn’t we compare them to the standard car? That is what they are replacing. The hybrids are autos that are trying to cut down on gas. So you select that as a comparison? Replacing hybrids will come later. > Electrics are the future. Sorry you can not see it. We ARE comparing them to the standard car in this thread. EV’s are a complete fail as a stand alone replacement unless you live on an island. To be practical they need an ICE or hybrid to back them up. I’ve approached this from a practical point of view. The best car for the money TODAY is a diesel. we could significantly raise our fleet mileage overnight and still have a fully functional replacement for today’s cars. they provide the fuel efficiency of hybrids without giving up anything. And when you consider there will be a need for diesel fuel for the foreseeable future in heavy lift transportation it just makes sense to let market forces shift toward the most economical product. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/212 "2011-04-25T04:07:38Z")
Diesels are no solution. [Their own thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13724779#post13724779) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/213 "2011-04-25T04:37:10Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Diesels are no solution. [Their own thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13724779#post13724779) Diesel fuel is taxed at a higher rate and the cars are not subsidized by the government. I’ll say it again, let the market decide. We are committed to making biodiesel for aviation and military use. The economic cars that would burn that fuel already exist as 100% replacements for today’s cars. The opposite cannot be said for EV’s at this time. Which is the topic of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/214 "2011-04-25T04:38:35Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **Hbns** - Level 2 rapid charging units are fully compatible between manufacturers. Every brand of vehicle accepts the same electric nozzles. > > The infrastructure sufficient to charge EVs in a manner that supports their use in normal commuting use (including driving over 4 hours with the heat blasting to go 30 miles each way with no chance to top off charge in between) is widely distributed and very convenient for most new car purchasers. The infrastructure for distance travel of several hundreds of miles a day is not and there and even widely distributed Level 3 quick DC charge (20 minutes recharge) can’t compete with gas or diesel for utility in that niche. > > I have no interest in selling **bengangmo** , but the bar (s)he initially set, reliably providing 100 km of range (62 miles) is met by the Leaf. It is only under the most extreme circumstance that its range might not be up to that task. And with a few public chargers and a quick top off here and there, even going out to dinner and a show after a full day commuting is realistic without anxiety. > > Which is the niche market in new car purchasers? The families with one car that need it to travel over that with some degree of frequency and/or that have no place to charge a car at home - or those who are replacing a second family vehicle, whose typical needs for that vehicle are within an EV’s range, who will use their other vehicle for the occasional outside that range purpose, and who have a place they can charge overnight? > > Well [two thirds](http://www.autospies.com/news/Study-Finds-Americans-Own-2-28-Vehicles-Per-Household-26437/) of American households have two _or more_ vehicles. In fact the largest group is those who have three or more. One of those vehicles in each of those households is going to be replaced in the next few years. No an EV won’t replace the pick-up truck one … but if one is used to commute most of the time and people keep seeing gas over $4/gallon then a sizable number of those new car purchases may be EVs. I’m a He 😃 Actually, if the price were reasonable I could imagine getting a something like the Leaf for my wife, with a “proper” car for myself. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/215 "2011-04-25T05:01:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Diesel fuel is taxed at a higher rate and the cars are not subsidized by the government. I’ll say it again, let the market decide. We are committed to making biodiesel for aviation and military use. The economic cars that would burn that fuel already exist as 100% replacements for today’s cars. The opposite cannot be said for EV’s at this time. Which is the topic of this thread. Feel free to run the numbers subtracting the 5 cent additional tax (on average Fed plus state) from the price differential. Since running the numbers by mistake with no price differential still had a 13 yr ROI I don’t think it will matter much. Diesels _had_ [their tax credit](http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxleanburn.shtml) period, officially “up to $3,400” although most actually qualified for $1300 or so. Then it phased out. The market did decide. And unless you want to do like the UK, where petrol is [taxed](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax) $7.85/US gallon compared to diesel which is taxed at $3.63/US gallon, the market has spoken. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/216 "2011-04-25T05:09:44Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Feel free to run the numbers subtracting the 5 cent additional tax (on average Fed plus state) from the price differential. Since running the numbers by mistake with no price differential still had a 13 yr ROI I don’t think it will matter much. > > Diesels _had_ [their tax credit](http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxleanburn.shtml) period, officially “up to $3,400” although most actually qualified for $1300 or so. Then it phased out. > > The market did decide. And unless you want to do like the UK, where petrol is [taxed](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax) $7.85/US gallon compared to diesel which is taxed at $3.63/US gallon, the market has spoken. A Focus diesel is $10,000 cheaper than a Volt and $2,000 cheaper than a Leaf. It doesn’t need to be babysat every night. It doesn’t need a garage to be tucked into or a 220 service line installed to be useful. It doesn’t need another car to make itself useful. It doesn’t care what the temperature is outside. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/217 "2011-04-25T05:34:21Z")
Yup, the ROI for the Leaf over the UK Fiesta ECOnetic is 3 to 4 years at today’s diesel prices. And you never have to stop at a gas station or worry about what gas, I mean diesel, prices will spike to next. You just have to plug it in when you get home, like you do you cell phone. And you know, while I used 10 cents/kW for calculations, locally ComEd is flat fee of 7 cents/hr and if I did the [real time pricing](http://www.citizensutilityboard.org/ciLiveWire_RI_ComEd_RTP.html)option and the app that charges the battery at lowest rate times I could get my car charged at just 2 cents an hour. BTW, you don’t think that your diesel gets different fuel economy stuck in hot summer gridlock with the AC running or in winter stop and go for 4 hours? It cares. Now I don’t so long as both can get me where I need to go, when I need to go there and both could. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/218 "2011-04-25T18:04:40Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Yup, the ROI for the Leaf over the UK Fiesta ECOnetic is 3 to 4 years at today’s diesel prices. And you never have to stop at a gas station or worry about what gas, I mean diesel, prices will spike to next. You just have to plug it in when you get home, like you do you cell phone. And you know, while I used 10 cents/kW for calculations, locally ComEd is flat fee of 7 cents/hr and if I did the [real time pricing](http://www.citizensutilityboard.org/ciLiveWire_RI_ComEd_RTP.html)option and the app that charges the battery at lowest rate times I could get my car charged at just 2 cents an hour. > > BTW, you don’t think that your diesel gets different fuel economy stuck in hot summer gridlock with the AC running or in winter stop and go for 4 hours? It cares. Now I don’t so long as both can get me where I need to go, when I need to go there and both could. you left out the cost of the extra car needed to support it. And no, I wouldn’t worry about the fuel economy in the hot summer gridlock while sitting in a nice air conditioned diesel. I would however worry about getting stranded in an EV. but maybe a nice person with a diesel will tow it home. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/219 "2011-04-25T21:30:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > you left out the cost of the extra car needed to support it. And no, I wouldn’t worry about the fuel economy in the hot summer gridlock while sitting in a nice air conditioned diesel. I would however worry about getting stranded in an EV. but maybe a nice person with a diesel will tow it home. Ah. I did not realize! Silly me. If I get a diesel then my wife doesn’t need her car any more. And if I get the electric my commute becomes three times as long! Sign me up. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/220 "2011-04-25T21:41:23Z")
I basically agree with your main point, DSeid, but I think you are misrepresenting what Magiver is saying. It’s more like ‘if you get a diesel you’ll have all the capabilities a gas powered car has, while if you get an all electric vehicle your car will be of limited utility’. A diesel has the same range and room capabilities of a gas powered car…an all electric does not and is oriented more for specific and limited requirements. If ALL you want is a commuter car that can get you to and from work within the parameters of the all electric, and you never need it to do anything else (if, for instance your wife has a car that can meet your potential expanded requirements when you need it to), then it’s great. It’s not going to be for everyone though…only for those people who either never have expanded requirements outside of their basic commute, never have requirements outside of the range and charging time limitations of the battery vehicle, or have an alternative vehicle. The diesel, on the other hand, doesn’t have any restrictions besides the greater price and greater costs for fuel. -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190.md?page=12)