# Can electric cars replace gasoline cars? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 13, 2011, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190 "2011-04-13T02:46:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/141 "2011-04-20T00:23:39Z")
[QUOTE=FXMastermind] Why do some people hate electric cars? [/QUOTE] Why do some people build inane strawmen that seemingly have little to do with what has actually been said? It’s a mystery… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/142 "2011-04-20T10:07:19Z")
> [@Keweenaw](#): > > Semantics… Definitions… You can’t have a debate without agreeing to words having specific meanings. I’d also like to point out that the thread title is “Can electric cars replace gasoline cars?” are you proposing a valid answer could be “Yes, as long as your electric car can use gasoline.” Cars with both electric motors and ICEs are clearly and obviously functional alternatives to traditional ICE cars. They may or may not be cost effective alternatives today, but hybrids of one type or another have been on the market for years and are fully functional automobiles. Debate - Boring Electric cars (those with no ICE), OTOH, have barely broken into the market, and have significant range problems. These cars cannot rely on our existing gasoline infrastructure for “refueling” and seem to require more technological and infrastructure investments before they’re ready for prime time. Debate - Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/143 "2011-04-20T12:29:56Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Sure, as long as you put in the additional caveat that there is a smaller fraction of that fraction that could afford the vehicles and wouldn’t care about paying the extra money because their second car is a Mercedes… > [@Magiver](#): > > Accepted, they do not pay for themselves. … Depends on how you want to define that. To the consumer today, the Leaf, as our model of a mass market aimed EV, pays for itself over the usual five year term of ownership of a new car. See post#89. If gas prices stay at $4 or over (around me they are $4.29) a consumer will save $4000 over the comparable ICE. Begrudge the tax credit if you must, but that is how new technologies get a foot up, and diesels have a long history of benefiting as well. Also **Magiver** , the 20 minute charge is on the Level 3 charger - in reference to the ones being deployed along the interstate locations such as in the Tennessee Triangle. Most home charging for those with any concern over recharge time will be on the 220 circuits and the Ford Focus EV and the next year Leaf will both support 4 hr complete recharge on those units. When I bought my Honda Civic hybrid 8 years ago, the articles out there were all about how the premium would take forever to pay for itself. It has paid its premium several times over by now and its resale value, if I chose to sell it now, is more than that premium above the non-hybrid Civic of that year as well. ---
**Author:** ![Keweenaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Keweenaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keweenaw)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/144 "2011-04-20T14:06:35Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Definitions… You can’t have a debate without agreeing to words having specific meanings. > > I’d also like to point out that the thread title is “Can electric cars replace gasoline cars?” are you proposing a valid answer could be “Yes, as long as your electric car can use gasoline.” > > Cars with both electric motors and ICEs are clearly and obviously functional alternatives to traditional ICE cars. They may or may not be cost effective alternatives today, but hybrids of one type or another have been on the market for years and are fully functional automobiles. Debate - Boring > > Electric cars (those with no ICE), OTOH, have barely broken into the market, and have significant range problems. These cars cannot rely on our existing gasoline infrastructure for “refueling” and seem to require more technological and infrastructure investments before they’re ready for prime time. Debate - Interesting. I’m proposing that a stepping stone between ICE and electric, beyond traditional hybrids, will be vehicles like the Volt. The Volt is an electric car with a with the ability to act as a hybrid to address the range issues you mention. The Volt is not a traditional hybrid, so it dosen’t fit in your boring category. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/145 "2011-04-20T14:26:47Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] To the consumer today, the Leaf, as our model of a mass market aimed EV, pays for itself over the usual five year term of ownership of a new car. See post#89. If gas prices stay at $4 or over (around me they are $4.29) a consumer will save $4000 over the comparable ICE. Begrudge the tax credit if you must, but that is how new technologies get a foot up, and diesels have a long history of benefiting as well. [/QUOTE] Are you talking about a [Nissan Leaf](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf)? It says here that the thing costs over $30k…that’s significantly higher than a comparable 4 door car of similar dimensions. It also says that for normal use (i.e. using the AC and driving in non-ideal conditions) it gets between 50 and 100 miles on a charge. Even with a large tax credit and even if we assume your figures are right and the consumer will save $4000 over 5 years, and even assuming that the car will be maintenance free over that time period, it’s still not going to appeal to most people, since it would be a very niche oriented vehicle. If you happen to work fairly close to where you live, and if you don’t have a requirement to ever drive more than 140 miles (with the AC shut down and the windows up in ideal conditions), and if you don’t mind the recharge times, and if you can afford to pay $10-15k more than a comparable footprint car just to save $4k over 5 years, then this will be a good buy for you. For everyone else, however, I doubt it will be worth it. I certainly wouldn’t buy such a car just to drive to work every day…not at $30k. I might consider a vehicle like that with similar capabilities for $15k…at that price it might be worth it for me to buy a car like that just for work. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/146 "2011-04-20T14:29:32Z")
> [@Keweenaw](#): > > The Volt is not a traditional hybrid, so it dosen’t fit in your boring category. It’s a plug in hybrid, but it’s still a boring debate, because the Volt is obviously just as functional as a plain ICE car. It’s like debating whether or not a diesel car could replace a gasoline car. Yes, it can, the only issue is cost/benefit for the owner. Debate over. The debate only becomes interesting when you remove the ICE from the car and have it rely entirely on electrical power. Now you’re talking about what future technology may be, what future infrastructure may be and what people demand of their cars. ---
**Author:** ![Keweenaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Keweenaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keweenaw)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/147 "2011-04-20T14:53:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Only if it’s being towed behind another car. Real driving experiences put it at 35 miles at normal driving. These are self reported, but some drivers have been getting in the upper end of the 25-50 range. [http://voltfansite.com/Statistics.aspx](http://voltfansite.com/Statistics.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/148 "2011-04-20T16:08:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Power is not the problem. Dollar for dollar an electric car will run rings around a gas engine. It’s the range and recharging time that blows chunks. I have not read the whole thread so if this has been posted already my apologies. Your issues may have a technological solution. Obviously development needs to continue but looks promising. > [@](#): > > Imagine being able to charge your cell phone in a matter of seconds or your laptop in a few minutes. That might soon be possible, thanks to a new kind of nanostructured battery electrode developed by scientists at the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign. The researchers found that their electrode can charge and discharge up to 100 times faster than existing devices while holding the same amount of energy. > > High-storage batteries that could charge and discharge quickly might make a number of still-marginal technologies much more attractive. For example, if you could recharge an electric car in minutes rather than hours, filling up your battery at a charging station would take no longer than the amount of time it takes to buy a tank of gas. > > SOURCE: [http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2011/03/a-battery-that-charges-in-second.html](http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2011/03/a-battery-that-charges-in-second.html) And… > [@](#): > > **Lithium-ion battery with new chemistry could power electric vehicles** > > \ > > “In summary, with respect to those using conventional lithium-ion batteries, electric vehicles using our battery may assure: 1) a longer driving range (210 km/charge vs. 150 km/charge due to the higher energy density; 2) a higher top speed; 3) a lower cost; and 4) better overall performance especially at low temperatures,” Scrosati said. > > SOURCE: [Lithium-ion battery with new chemistry could power electric vehicles](http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-02-lithium-ion-battery-chemistry-power-electric.html) ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/149 "2011-04-20T16:49:36Z")
WRT recharging time, the limiter isn’t the battery, it’s the recharging station. Take a typical 10 gallon refueling stop. Gas has 36.6Kwh per gallon of energy. Assume 20% overall ICE efficiency, that is a net 73.2Kwh of energy transferred during the stop. To do that electrically, it depends on how much time you are allowing: 6 hours, you need 50 Amps @ 240 Volts 30 minutes, you need 300 Amps @ 480 Volts 2 minutes (equivalent to pumping 10 gallons of gas) you need 1,500 Amps @ 1,500 Volts 6 hours, you can do that at pretty much any home, as long as you run a dedicated line 30 minutes, you can do that at a dedicated recharging station, and I think it pushes the limits of what you want untrained people to handle 2 minutes, I can’t imagine how we would go about setting up a system where average people regularly handle high voltage high amperage wiring like that. I don’t even know what kind of wire and shielding you would use to have something like that hooked up to the outside of your car. Can we technology our way out of this problem? I don’t know, we’ve been using copper wire technology for 100 years, and I don’t see anything to suggest that something better is on the horizon. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/150 "2011-04-20T17:14:48Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > WRT recharging time, the limiter isn’t the battery, it’s the recharging station. > > Take a typical 10 gallon refueling stop. Gas has 36.6Kwh per gallon of energy. Assume 20% overall ICE efficiency, that is a net 73.2Kwh of energy transferred during the stop. To do that electrically, it depends on how much time you are allowing: > 6 hours, you need 50 Amps @ 240 Volts > > 30 minutes, you need 300 Amps @ 480 Volts > > 2 minutes (equivalent to pumping 10 gallons of gas) you need 1,500 Amps @ 1,500 Volts > > 6 hours, you can do that at pretty much any home, as long as you run a dedicated line > > 30 minutes, you can do that at a dedicated recharging station, and I think it pushes the limits of what you want untrained people to handle > > 2 minutes, I can’t imagine how we would go about setting up a system where average people regularly handle high voltage high amperage wiring like that. I don’t even know what kind of wire and shielding you would use to have something like that hooked up to the outside of your car. Can we technology our way out of this problem? I don’t know, we’ve been using copper wire technology for 100 years, and I don’t see anything to suggest that something better is on the horizon. Why make it one cable at 1500/1500 amps/volts? If the 30 minute fill time is reasonable then why not make the recharging plug a 5-cable affair bundled into one unit (or three cables for a 10 minute fill)? The car of course would have 5-hook-ups to match (each hookup charges a subset of the bank of batteries on the car). The car and pump could talk to each other to make sure no power is flowing till the cables are properly seated. They could engage a locking mechanism that stays locked till the power is shut off. IANAElectrician so perhaps there are issues with that I am unaware of but seems reasonable to me and relatively fool-proof. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/151 "2011-04-20T17:31:22Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Depends on how you want to define that. > > To the consumer today, the Leaf, as our model of a mass market aimed EV, pays for itself over the usual five year term of ownership of a new car. See post#89. If gas prices stay at $4 or over (around me they are $4.29) a consumer will save $4000 over the comparable ICE. Begrudge the tax credit if you must, but that is how new technologies get a foot up, and diesels have a long history of benefiting as well. The Nissan Versa which has a little more HP and torque than the LEAF (and both based on the Tiida) is around $15000. The LEAF after tax break is just over $25000 for the lowest price. $10000 at $4/gal is 2500 gallons of gas. The Versa looks like it gets 30-35 mpg in real world driving so around 80,000 miles until gas saving equals premium. Caveats. If no tax break, the miles to break even is around 140,000. According to the EPA, the LEAF’s range is 73 miles. 80K miles may not seem like a lot but how many miles per year would you drive if limited to 75 miles for an entire trip? What is the cost of electricity over time to recharge? Negligable or significant? ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/152 "2011-04-20T22:16:59Z")
One question: what does BEV mean? B\_\_\_\_\_ Electric Vehical? I think AEV = All Electric Vehical. The Leaf is slightly more interesting than regular hybrids because it has plug in capability, making it able to function for a limited amount as a full electric vehicle. As a full electric vehicle, it has limited range, and lengthy recharge times, at a large price hit. It addresses the range and recharge issue by being a hybrid, using an ICE as a [del]secondary[/del] alternate power source. However, the ICE is not as efficient as those in similar car types that are pure ICE’s, and the cost hit is still there. Whether any of those debates is interesting is up to the individual. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/153 "2011-04-20T23:22:28Z")
Any love for the Tesla S? $50K gets you 160 miles, $60K gets you 230 miles and $70K gets you 300 miles per charge. 45 minute QuickCharge available. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/154 "2011-04-20T23:27:19Z")
BEV stands for Battery Electric Vehicle. As opposed to, say an electric vehicle that uses a fuel cell, or perhaps an external electric source (I presume). As for the Tesla…I’d love one. I think they are way cool. I wish I could afford to buy one in the same way I wish I could afford an expensive classic car or sports car, a large boat or an air plane (even an ultra light would be cool). -XT ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/155 "2011-04-20T23:32:58Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Any love for the Tesla S? $50K gets you 160 miles, $60K gets you 230 miles and $70K gets you 300 miles per charge. 45 minute QuickCharge available. What does the 45 minute quick charge get the owner and how is it different from other chargers? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/156 "2011-04-20T23:54:14Z")
AFAIC, you can’t completely charge up a Tesla in 45 minutes. More like 4 hours to go from nothing on the battery to fully charged. in Tesla’s literature they talk about the fact that, usually, their customers only have to ‘top off’ the charge, since in general people don’t drive several hundred miles between charging up. I may be wrong, but there isn’t much on Tesla’s web site about 45 minute charge times. [Here](http://www.teslamotors.com/models/specs) is their page for the S model, and [here](http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/technology) is the one for the Roadster. On the Roadster page it says this: > [@](#): > > The Roadster battery charger is located on-board the car. This means the Roadster can be plugged into any outlet, anywhere in the world - plug in a cell phone, plug in a Roadster. Charge times vary based on the outlet voltage and Amperage. With the Tesla High Power Wall Connector, a Roadster charges in as little as 4 hours from empty, yet most Roadster owners simply “top off” after each trip and start each day with a full charge. If I’m missing something I’d love to see it as well. I love the Tesla…not only does it have kick ass performance characteristics for an AEV, but it LOOKS way cool…either the Roadster OR the S Model. I’d take either one! -XT ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/157 "2011-04-21T00:57:35Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > AFAIC, you can’t completely charge up a Tesla in 45 minutes. More like 4 hours to go from nothing on the battery to fully charged. in Tesla’s literature they talk about the fact that, usually, their customers only have to ‘top off’ the charge, since in general people don’t drive several hundred miles between charging up. It has been awhile since I looked into battery technology but IIRC many rechargeable batteries will gain 90% charge in short order. That last 10% is what takes a fair bit longer than the previous 90%. I wonder if Tesla is exploiting this and marketing it as a “feature”. (I really do not know…just guessing.) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/158 "2011-04-21T01:03:45Z")
I’m not sure either, but I know that that Tesla batteries are pretty advanced technology (and quite expensive)…so, I THINK they actually do charge pretty quickly (4 hours to fully charge up a car that can go over 200 miles on a charge driving in excess of 60 miles per hour is pretty damn impressive, IMHO). -XT ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/159 "2011-04-21T01:37:33Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Why make it one cable at 1500/1500 amps/volts? > > If the 30 minute fill time is reasonable then why not make the recharging plug a 5-cable affair bundled into one unit (or three cables for a 10 minute fill)? The car of course would have 5-hook-ups to match (each hookup charges a subset of the bank of batteries on the car). > > The car and pump could talk to each other to make sure no power is flowing till the cables are properly seated. They could engage a locking mechanism that stays locked till the power is shut off. > > IANAElectrician so perhaps there are issues with that I am unaware of but seems reasonable to me and relatively fool-proof. Contact resistance becomes a serious challenge at 50 amps and greater. You can’t have electrical charging contacts simply resting against each other with just the force of gravity and expect to pass that kind of current. I don’t see any way around this short of bolting or clamping the contacts together. If you have ever had to use jumper cables to jump-start a dead battery, you know how much force those jaw-clamps exert on the battery terminals. And that’s just for a momentary flow of 100 amps or so. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190/160 "2011-04-21T02:13:33Z")
> [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](#): > > Contact resistance becomes a serious challenge at 50 amps and greater. You can’t have electrical charging contacts simply resting against each other with just the force of gravity and expect to pass that kind of current. I don’t see any way around this short of bolting or clamping the contacts together. > > If you have ever had to use jumper cables to jump-start a dead battery, you know how much force those jaw-clamps exert on the battery terminals. And that’s just for a momentary flow of 100 amps or so. I would not think some sort of mechanism to lock them in place is much problem. Would serve the added purpose of people not just yanking the plug when that much power is involved. As long as power is being provided the lock remains. Once done and no current the lock releases. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-electric-cars-replace-gasoline-cars/578190.md?page=9)