You mean like the very nice diesel Ford Focus vehicles in Europe. Indeed rated at 80 mpg! Of course …
A nice car. But not quite what you believe it is.
What the devil does that Googled link have to do with proving coal is petroleum? Coal is not petroleum. It is not defined as such by those who work in the energy industry, not in any of the nearly 2 dozen countries I’ve worked in and the probably close to 100 countries I’ve done projects in remotely. I’ve worked at petroleum laboratories and been trained in South America on different types of petroleum. I’ve worked with Exxon and BP on petroleum and coal projects. I’ve studied and analyzed and spent a large part of my life at coal and petroleum plants, and coal is not petroleum as anyone familiar with energy topics knows it.
I can refer to the first book on my “oil” shelf here at home, Speight, James G. The Chemistry and Technology of Petroleum New York: Marcel Dekker, 1991 (2nd. Ed) which uses the same definition one can find elsewhere, which states:
I can see why that might throw someone. I guess. Maybe, if they had no scientific background. Those of us in the energy industry will say “no shit?” knowing that crude oil does contain a mixture of these items. For that matter coal contains liquid and gaseous hydrocarbons, and gas contains condensible liquids and sometimes some entrained solid particles. Big deal. That’s like saying because giraffes are mammals and eat lettuce, and hippos are mammals and eat lettuce, therefore both of them are humans. Which is why Speight then spends the next 700+ pages speaking to exactly what petroleum is. And to boil it down to one sentence, it’s not coal.
Further I’ve posted so many times and in great detail about the minuscule fraction of electrical power generated by petroleum that it was a running joke on this message board for several years.
No it isn’t. I’m just going to grab one citation by the EIA since we’re talking about US energy use here.
EIA definition of petroleum:
(amphasis added) http://www.eia.doe.gov/totalenergy/data/annual/pdf/glossary.pdf
So no more of this tomfoolery!
Actually the folks in Europe were able to best that figure by 8% and the winner in the competition did it by simply keeping it in the diesel’s low rpm torque band. It is everything they say it is unlike the Volt where the test drivers are having problems getting the advertised miles per charge. And unlike the Volt the Focus will deliver the fuel economy all day long.
It may well be true that 80% of drivers have an average daily commute of less than 30 miles (or whatever), but how often do you need to go outside of this before an EV makes no sense?
Once a month? Once a fortnight?
Even those that have a short commute that can be done on one charge (there and back) I would be willing to bet that at least once a month the majority will be put into a situation whereby the range won’t be enough.
And if you are dropping the sorts of money required for a car, you simply don’t want that to happen. To put up with it would require a real paradigm shift.
As an example, our current daily commute is circa 30km, but tomorrow my wife needs to go to an off-site location, if I drove her there, then back to my office, then go pick her up the commute is going to hit 120-130 km. SO the car would be useless. I could easily see this happening once a month or more.
We have one car that we share.
Until and unless there is a paradigm shift in EVs or personal transportation needs, EVs aren’t going to be anything other than a niche option.
For the near term future (IMHO), diesel is the way to manage emissions, and supplementing this is diesel electric hybrid. This is something that has also been confirmed by more than one automotive country managers that I have spoken to.
Furthermore - how much are you willing to risk on the uncertainty of getting a charging point to complete your commute. How many people do you know that never let their tank go below half in case they don’t have time to pump gas?
Indeed if a car that goes an advertised 100 miles between charges (and to be fair sometimes less and sometimes more depending on circumstances … hot summer AC running stuck in stop and go for hours and it can get down to roughly 50) is going to leave you stranded, then you should not pick an EV.
Your 130 km route would be within range for most days, but not under all driving conditions. If you are going to need to do this with any frequency and are a one car family and have no place to charge up while parked midway then the Leaf is not for you.
Are there plenty of other people for whom that range is enough? Yes.
Magiver, could you point me a linkee to that 8% better diesel please?
Actually my point is more about flexibility and uncertainty. The big advantage of gas powered cars is that you can refuel almost anywhere. With an electric car with a range of daily commute + 80% (for the sake of argument). You are at the mercy of having to run an unexpected errand. Or not plugging in properly. Or no charging station available. That’s a big risk. And how big is your reward for that risk? If it’s enough to pay for a tow once a month. Or the o
Inconvenience of calling a cab when you run out of juice then fine. If not?
I’d be interested in subscribing to your news letter on how to cope with traffic jams.
No, it means you need to plan your trip properly. It takes about 4 hours for me to drive to New York City. If I need to be there by 3 pm today, do you think I’m leaving home at 11:00? No I’m leaving no later than 9:00 because I know I’ll need a couple of breaks (each about 15-20 minutes), at least one refueling stop and some padding for traffic delays. If there are charging stations at the rest stops, I can kill two birds.
(I’m referring to DSeid’s “20 minute break for charging” statement back on page 2. If it only takes 20 minutes, I’m saying that taking a break while recharging is a good thing. Too many people try to drive long distances without rest in the name of getting somewhere “in a timely manner”.)
I know it’s not there yet, but this will be a standard part of trip planning in the near future. When you plan to go from point A to point C, and the distance involved is greater than… oh, say 75% of your car’s charge will allow, your car will plot a route from A to C that stops at changing point B somewhere in between. The days of people walking along the side of the road with a gasoline can will be history because the technology won’t allow it (unless you are foolish enough to ignore the recommended route and you omit stop B, in which case you get what you deserve).
What risk? If the electric runs out you have a gas engine with a range of 350 miles. If you work farther from home than that, get a new job.
Some corporations have already installed plug in stations so workers can recharge at work. That is in anticipation of plenty of electric cars.
That’s if you have a hybrid, gonzo. I think bengangmo might be talking about an all electric vehicle. So, if you had and all electric vehicle, and you had used up a good percentage of the charge, and you needed more from it you’d be out of luck until it was recharged enough to go the further distance.
-XT
The reason the electric car failed the first time in the US was vested corporate interest and there is no reason why that wont happen again. If people haven’t already seen the documentary ‘Who Killed the Electric Car’ then I highly recommend it.
I’ve seen it and I found it basically bullshit (there have been a few threads on it, if you want to look them up). The reason the electric car failed is because there wasn’t a great enough market for the things at the time, and the technology wasn’t ready for prime time. Even today, the technology isn’t ready for prime time wrt all electric vehicles, and the markets still aren’t there. People are simply not willing to pay more for less functionality. They weren’t ready to do that then, they aren’t ready to do that now. Simple as that.
Now…as the price of gas goes up, that equation will change, and people might be willing to pay more for a vehicle up front if the costs of operating it are substantially less, so that they actually have a realistic ROI trade off. But today it’s a niche market.
-XT
http://www.montclairnjusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2650:township-wins-grant-for-electric-car-charging-stations&catid=285:news-and-events&Itemid=660
Cities and shops are installing recharging stations. They are looking into the future. Parking lots for Walmart, Costco and other companies will allow you to recharge while you shop.
It is the future. The auto world is changing, even if you can not see it. or find it shocking.
http://blog.fuelclinic.com/2010/01/03/87-mpg-while-driving-a-ford-focus/
60 mpg is a realistic number.
The Volt is what prompts most of the threads since it has just become available.
But here is the range for the electrics available now. They go to over 200 miles.
But you all know the range will go up in the future.
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
The Volt is what prompts most of the threads since it has just become available.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t believe the poster you quoted was talking about a Volt or a hybrid.
In your cite, the only cars with ranges close to or over 200 miles on a charge are the Tesla cars (with the premium battery packs). Granted, I’d LOVE a Tesla…I just don’t have that kind of scratch to get one, being non-rich and all. 
-XT
We need a thread about cars and mpg. That would be awesome.
A thread just about diesel may be interesting. Just remember to keep apples to apples, as pointed out in post #101. The EU imperial gallon is not the American gallon - it is 20% larger. Neither the UK cycle not the EPA cycle necessarily reflect real world mpg. Their use is to compare vehicles tested on the same cycle with each other and the UK cycle runs high. Diesel takes more crude to make and is more energy dense. It gets farther per gallon to no small degree because of that fact. Basically take 20% off of the mpg to correct for that. And those emissions that Magiver resents having controlled, “black soot”, are considered to be very potent GHG components as well as having other health effects.
Finally diesels are not cheap.
bengamo, yes. If your driving habits are variable and uncertain enough that 100 miles range of the Leaf or the to be released Ford Focus BEV between charging opportunities will not comfortably carry you, and you have only the one car in the family to use, then your next car should not be one of those pure BEVs.
You were in a thread discussing about making 250 K. You are rich and could afford a Tesla.
I just provided the info that proved electrics can already go a lot farther than you critics claim. But it will get even better in the near future and a hell of lot better down the line.
This thread is not about the Volt. It is about electric cars. The Volt is a great new car and should shake up the industry.
The main concern in this thread seems to be range. That’s obviously important but even if that were solved there is still a huge infrastructure problem that would have to be dealt with before we could have everyone driving full non-hybrid electrics.
Take me as an example. I live in a second story apartment and park at the curb wherever there’s an open space. Where am I going to plug in my car?