# Can Epicureans have a public life? a political theory?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-epicureans-have-a-public-life-a-political-theory/338916
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [January 7, 2006, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-epicureans-have-a-public-life-a-political-theory/338916 "2006-01-07T19:38:22Z")
**Posts on this page:** 7
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [January 9, 2006, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-epicureans-have-a-public-life-a-political-theory/338916/21 "2006-01-09T04:45:19Z")
> [@gitfiddle](#):
>
> PS - **Captain Amazing** , can good Epicureans really hate?
The good Epicurean will ask himself what the source of his hatred is. What unneccesary desire is he subject to that the failure to fufill such desire leads him to such passion? And then, finding the underlying desire, if it really is unneccesary, he’ll realize that and stop desiring it. If the desire is neccesary, he’ll fufil it.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [January 9, 2006, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-epicureans-have-a-public-life-a-political-theory/338916/22 "2006-01-09T04:49:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> BTW, how did “epicure” come to be a rough synonym for “gourmet”?
First, to answer the question you asked in your last message, I don’t think Epicureanism is like Taoism, but I don’t know enough about Taoism to be sure.
Now, how did epicure come to mean gourmet? Epicureans were hedonists, who said that the goal in life is to be happy, by seeking pleasure and avoiding pain. While the Epicurean school mostly focused on intellectual pleasure, people still made the link between Epicureanism and physical pleasure, especially about food. So, there’s where that comes from.
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### Author:  [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)
#### Post date: [January 9, 2006, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-epicureans-have-a-public-life-a-political-theory/338916/23 "2006-01-09T04:59:23Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#):
>
> Very different, and almost diametrically opposed (and the Epicureans and Stoics hated each other, btw). Epicureans worried about what was personally good for them, and what would make them happy. Stoics worried about what was good for the world as a whole and what would be best for that. That’s why Epicureans avoided politics and Stoics didn’t…Epicureans said that a politician could never be happy, so no Epicurean could be a politician, while Stoics said that, even though an individual might not like politics, he had a moral duty to participate to help his community.
>
> The Epicureans said the universe was random, governed by chance, and that there was no purpose to events. Stoics said that the universe was ordered, almost organic, and governed by universal natural and moral laws,
>
> Epicureans said that to be happy, someone should try to ignore pain and unpleasantness, while Stoics said that a person should train himself to be indifferent to pain and unpleasantness.
>
> As for the earlier comments made by someone that Buddhism is similar to Epicureanism, I think it’s really more similar to Stoicism. If you want to find an Indian analog to Epicureanism, I’d say Carvaka is most similar.
Thanks for refreshing my memory. I would agree that the similarities are stronger between Stoicism and Buddhism - Stoic indifference is almost identical to Buddhist non-attachment. And both philosophies encouraged a more ascetic lifestyle over the aestheticism of Epicurus. (A point I half-made earlier.)
Yet while Stoicism emphasized logic and following from reason, Buddhism follows an empirical approach (with similarities here to Skepticism), and that to truly understand nature, one must transcend logic and reason, demonstrated by the meditation practices using koans to acheive samadhi.
And again, Buddhism is essentially a means for personal harmony; any social benefits are secondary. This is more true of the Theraveda schools than the Mahayana sects, but political writings by historical Buddhists are a rarity. This may have been the influence of Confucianism in China. The two philosophies are definitely compatible as noted by their centuries-old coexistence. Even in India, Buddha did not try to seek social reforms since his few complaints about the social order arose from the ignorance of the practioners, not the practices.
I do not think I had heard of Carvaka before. Going by a quick read, I would agree with that comparison also.
I stand by what I said earlier regarding Epicurean politics, but I agree that they had no taste for active politics. IMHO, a modern-day Epicurean would try to implement any reforms they felt necessary more through the private sector - non-profits, foundations, etc. I would classify them as a modernist, secular, moderate Republican. Stoics I would say are definitely closer to the Progressive movement. All good Skeptics should become journalists. Cynics make the best teachers.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [January 9, 2006, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-epicureans-have-a-public-life-a-political-theory/338916/24 "2006-01-09T16:22:06Z")
> [@Agnostic Pagan](#):
>
> I stand by what I said earlier regarding Epicurean politics, but I agree that they had no taste for active politics. IMHO, a modern-day Epicurean would try to implement any reforms they felt necessary more through the private sector - non-profits, foundations, etc. I would classify them as a modernist, secular, moderate Republican. Stoics I would say are definitely closer to the Progressive movement. All good Skeptics should become journalists. Cynics make the best teachers.
I don’t know if I’d agree with all that. It’s always a temptation to take philosophies out of their time, and say “this is what they’d do today”, but really I don’t think Epicureans were anything like modern moderate Republicans, or Stoics anything like Progressives. Cynics tended to be too misanthropic to make good teachers, and Skeptics might have problems with journalism…the Skeptics tendid to dismiss as impossible the whole idea of “finding out what happened”.
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### Author:  [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)
#### Post date: [January 9, 2006, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-epicureans-have-a-public-life-a-political-theory/338916/25 "2006-01-09T16:42:54Z")
> [@gitfiddle](#):
>
> The more I study the world, East and West, ancien and modern, I’m starting to think that throughout history, in a lot of different parts of the world, various people were all arriving at generally the same conclusions about things.
You might want to look at The Abolition of Man, by C.S. Lewis. In it he explores the idea that there are some fundamental values which have been shared across cultures over time. He calls those shared values The Tao, but he uses that as a word of convenience, the actual Tao is only one of the sources he uses from which to draw his list of shared values. It is not a book of Christian apologetics. He draws on some of the same ideas in Mere Christianity to establish the idea of natural law, but in The Abolition of Man he does not extend the discussion to advocating any specific religion.
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### Author:  [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2006, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-epicureans-have-a-public-life-a-political-theory/338916/26 "2006-01-10T05:00:52Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#):
>
> I don’t know if I’d agree with all that. **It’s always a temptation to take philosophies out of their time, and say “this is what they’d do today”** , but really I don’t think Epicureans were anything like modern moderate Republicans, or Stoics anything like Progressives. Cynics tended to be too misanthropic to make good teachers, and Skeptics might have problems with journalism…the Skeptics tendid to dismiss as impossible the whole idea of “finding out what happened”.
This is what makes history and philosophy come alive though, trying to find their modern day counterparts. I have not studied Roman history in depth enough to truly make such broad statements, though that gives me a path to follow. These schools did make it the top often enough to influence some policies. Those case studies would make an excellent read. I have not heard of history along those lines - has anyone? My sentiments are based on how my perceptions of how those schools would act today, and from seeing how those that embody those traits do act today.
On a side note, misanthropy never keep someone from entering the teaching profession, though granted they definitely do not make the best teachers.
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### Author:  [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2006, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-epicureans-have-a-public-life-a-political-theory/338916/27 "2006-01-10T05:01:59Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#):
>
> I don’t know if I’d agree with all that. **It’s always a temptation to take philosophies out of their time, and say “this is what they’d do today”** , but really I don’t think Epicureans were anything like modern moderate Republicans, or Stoics anything like Progressives. Cynics tended to be too misanthropic to make good teachers, and Skeptics might have problems with journalism…the Skeptics tendid to dismiss as impossible the whole idea of “finding out what happened”.
This is what makes history and philosophy come alive though, trying to find their modern day counterparts. I have not studied Roman history in depth enough to truly make such broad statements, though that gives me a path to follow. These schools did make it the top often enough to influence some policies. Those case studies would make an excellent read. I have not heard of history along those lines - has anyone? My sentiments are based on my perceptions of how those schools would act today, and from seeing how those that embody those traits do act today.
On a side note, misanthropy never keep someone from entering the teaching profession, though granted they definitely do not make the best teachers.
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