# Can Fallen Angels repent? Be forgiven? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 28, 2005, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-fallen-angels-repent-be-forgiven/332987 "2005-11-28T01:54:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-fallen-angels-repent-be-forgiven/332987/21 "2005-11-29T17:26:51Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Remember the heavens go in every direction around a **SPHERICAL** Earth. Human beings are under the control of angels only as they form their own identity with which to navigate the infinite eternity. I thought the Earth was flat. Heaven above, hell below. ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-fallen-angels-repent-be-forgiven/332987/22 "2005-11-29T22:53:52Z")
So… If angels are just puppets of God, then God made them fall… Almost like some believe that Judas was doomed from the get go. This is very interesting and I have not thought about it that way before. I think I am going to have to buy a 12 pack and get my buddies together for a discussion on this one. Hmmmmm Better make that a 30 pack. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-fallen-angels-repent-be-forgiven/332987/23 "2005-11-29T23:05:45Z")
> [@](#): > > “There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.” **Cunctator** , I thought that the point of purgatory was that it could allow sinners to repent of their sins after death, and possibly make it to Heaven? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-fallen-angels-repent-be-forgiven/332987/24 "2005-11-30T16:18:09Z")
> [@Translucent Daydream](#): > > So… If angels are just puppets of God, then God made them fall… Like I said, Angels don’t fall, the idea of the fall is predicated on a primitive understanding of physics. If the Angels are in a position that would lead you astray in relation to your physical position, then they are fallen angels. Think intelligence without will. The human free will is a decision of which of the myriad angels to choose from. Saying one angel is fallen and another is not is a political trick of humans trying to say that their way is the absolute true and right way. 😉 Erek ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-fallen-angels-repent-be-forgiven/332987/25 "2005-11-30T16:23:20Z")
Maybe God sent some of them to be “bad” so he looks “good.” :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-fallen-angels-repent-be-forgiven/332987/26 "2005-11-30T20:33:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Cunctator, I thought that the point of purgatory was that it could allow sinners to repent of their sins after death, and possibly make it to Heaven? Nope. Depending on one’s viewpoint, it’s either to work off the metaphysical effects of sins already forgiven, or to satisfy the temporal guilt incurred by those sins. In other words, the sins have been forgiven, but one still has to deal with the consequences of those sins. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-fallen-angels-repent-be-forgiven/332987/27 "2005-11-30T21:43:29Z")
> [@Translucent Daydream](#): > > Maybe God sent some of them to be “bad” so he looks “good.” :dubious: That’s the delusion of opposition. God has no opposite. They are simply manifestations of infinity, myriad and infinite choices. They can be good and evil in comparison to you, not in comparison to God. According to the Sefer Yetzirah good and evil are directions, like forward and backward in time, or left and right, east west etc… and that what is good for one is evil for another etc… Erek ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-fallen-angels-repent-be-forgiven/332987/28 "2005-11-30T21:59:23Z")
> [@Northern Piper](#): > > **Cunctator** , I thought that the point of purgatory was that it could allow sinners to repent of their sins after death, and possibly make it to Heaven? No, that’s not correct. The Church’s teaching is that at death each of us faces a “particular judgement”: - those who die in a state of grace and are perfectly purified of their self-love and the effects of their sins will go to heaven; - those who die in a state of grace, and have fully repented of their sins, but not fully expiated them, will go to purgatory to be “purified” so that any remaining love of self is transformed into love of God; - those who do not die in a state of grace will go to hell. Note that this clearly means that souls in purgatory will eventually reach heaven, after an unspecified period of purification. The souls in purgatory do not need to repent. They have already died in God’s love. They’re just not “perfect” enough for heaven yet. There’s a good quote that summarises it. I can’t remember who said it (Sir Arnold Lunn?) but it was along the lines that “the Catholic Church’s role is to get as many souls as possible into purgatory”. Heaven would be better still, of course, but purgatory is far more realistic and still ensures the soul’s eternal salvation. The Catechism explains it all quite well: > [@](#): > > 1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. > > 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. > > 1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead: Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them. Source: [Catechism of the Catholic Church](http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/art12.html) ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-fallen-angels-repent-be-forgiven/332987/29 "2005-12-01T16:38:53Z")
> [@Tevildo](#): > > But surely the angels aren’t subject to Original Sin, not being descendents of Adam? My point isn’t that angels are subject to Original Sin, but merely that you can sin without choosing to sin – obviously you can, because every human ostensibly does so. But so the fact that angels don’t have choice isn’t an impediment to their sin, because choice is not necessary for sin. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-fallen-angels-repent-be-forgiven/332987/30 "2005-12-01T19:16:06Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > My point isn’t that angels are subject to Original Sin, but merely that you can sin without choosing to sin – obviously you can, because every human ostensibly does so. But so the fact that angels don’t have choice isn’t an impediment to their sin, because choice is not necessary for sin. I think I’ll need your definition of “sin” before I can respond to this. I would define it as something like “opposition of the sinner’s will to that of God” - every sin is, by _my_ definition, a choice, if not necessarily a _conscious_ choice. Obviously you don’t agree. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-fallen-angels-repent-be-forgiven/332987/31 "2005-12-01T19:51:46Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > My point isn’t that angels are subject to Original Sin, but merely that you can sin without choosing to sin – obviously you can, because every human ostensibly does so. But so the fact that angels don’t have choice isn’t an impediment to their sin, because choice is not necessary for sin. > > –Cliffy I don’t quite agree. I understand your point, but none-the-less, Adam and Eve needed free-will in order to commit the Original Sin. Without that they could not have eaten from the tree of knowledge and their children could not be subject to Original Sin. ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-fallen-angels-repent-be-forgiven/332987/32 "2005-12-01T21:13:50Z")
Theres a verse which says By faith you are saved. So I take it to mean the angels couldn’t accept Jesus by faith, since they saw Him with their own eyes and KNEW. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-fallen-angels-repent-be-forgiven/332987/33 "2005-12-01T21:39:20Z")
> [@Tevildo](#): > > I think I’ll need your definition of “sin” before I can respond to this. It’s not _my_ definition. > [@](#): > > I would define it as something like “opposition of the sinner’s will to that of God” I don’t believe this is consonant with traditional Christian mythology, which holds that you cannot not sin, no matter how much you want not to – like Jimmy Carter, at the very least you’re going to lust in your heart. So I’d say that anyone who accepts the Christian god has to conceive of sin as opposition of the sinner’s _actions_ to those demanded by god. No one doesn’t sin. > [@](#): > > Obviously you don’t agree. 🙂 I don’t, sure, but because I think the whole thing is bollocks. > [@Khadaji](#): > > I don’t quite agree. I understand your point, but none-the-less, Adam and Eve needed free-will in order to commit the Original Sin. Adam and Eve, sure. They weren’t born with Original Sin (they weren’t born at all). But you and me ostensibly were – we were sinners at the moment of conception. What good our will then? And yet, sin we did. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-fallen-angels-repent-be-forgiven/332987/34 "2005-12-01T22:01:40Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > Adam and Eve, sure. They weren’t born with Original Sin (they weren’t born at all). But you and me ostensibly were – we were sinners at the moment of conception. What good our will then? And yet, sin we did. > > –Cliffy But that is the point, we inherited original sin from their free will - their choice. Angels do not have that precedent. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-fallen-angels-repent-be-forgiven/332987/35 "2005-12-01T22:35:39Z")
My actions or condition being determined by somebody else’s choice is an exercise of my free will. So I don’t see why your objection is relevant. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-fallen-angels-repent-be-forgiven/332987/36 "2005-12-01T22:39:53Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > It’s not **my** definition. That’s as may be, I still need to know what it is to argue against it. 🙂 > [@](#): > > I don’t believe this is consonant with traditional Christian mythology, which holds that you cannot not sin, no matter how much you want not to – like Jimmy Carter, at the very least you’re going to lust in your heart. So I’d say that anyone who accepts the Christian god has to conceive of sin as opposition of the sinner’s _actions_ to those demanded by god. No one doesn’t sin. Yes, this is the doctrine of Original Sin, which _exclusively_ applies to Adam’s descendents, not the angels. I would also make a distinction between “being sinful” (which the doctrine says we all are), and “committing sins”, which requires a definite exercise of our free will. > [@](#): > > I don’t, sure, but because I think the whole thing is bollocks. “The whole thing” being? Sin? Christianity? > [@](#): > > Adam and Eve, sure. They weren’t born with Original Sin (they weren’t born at all). But you and me ostensibly were – we were sinners at the moment of conception. What good our will then? And yet, sin we did. This is the point. Adam (and the fallen angels) weren’t subject to _Original_ sin, but they still had free will, which meant that they _could_ sin. From what you’ve said earlier, am I right in thinking that a creature who (a) wasn’t subject to Original Sin or some other externally-imposed curse from God, and (b) didn’t have free will, could _still_ be sinful? If so, how? Incidentally, I’m not completely sure about this precise point of the doctrine, but I _think_ that Original Sin only applies from _birth_, not conception. Can one of our experts in Roman Catholicism clarify this point? ---
**Author:** ![Strengths](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@Strengths](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strengths)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-fallen-angels-repent-be-forgiven/332987/37 "2005-12-02T00:50:14Z")
What sort of a god would punish people who’ve already learned their lesson? Even worse, what sort of god would create people who are fated to be in a position where they will never ever learn their lesson? If being in Hell only makes you sin further and sin offends God then what’s the point of being there? If Hell doesn’t make one sin further then why send people there? If for some reason people could repent in Hell, why design human beings such that they would have to undergo such intense suffering before they advance an inch towards God’s grace? I believe in maltheism so there isn’t any contradiction for me here, but I’m wondering how the eutheists justify this. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-fallen-angels-repent-be-forgiven/332987/38 "2005-12-02T01:02:24Z")
To clarify – I don’t say angels have Original Sin. I say that the existence of Original Sin in Christian doctrine is conclusive evidence that a being can sin (i.e., be outside the state of Grace) without choosing to do so. Ergo, the fact that angels have Fallen is _not_ evidence that they have free will. It is a point of doctrine as I understand it that angels do not have free will. However, redemption through Christ must be chosen. That’s why fallen angels can’t repent or be forgiven. They do not have the power to choose. –Cliffy P.S. > [@Tevildo](#): > > “The whole thing” being? Sin? Christianity? Yes and yes. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-fallen-angels-repent-be-forgiven/332987/39 "2005-12-02T01:55:04Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > To clarify – I don’t say angels have Original Sin. I say that the existence of Original Sin in Christian doctrine is conclusive evidence that a being can sin (i.e., be outside the state of Grace) without choosing to do so. Ergo, the fact that angels have Fallen is _not_ evidence that they have free will. It is a point of doctrine as I understand it that angels do not have free will. However, redemption through Christ must be chosen. That’s why fallen angels can’t repent or be forgiven. They do not have the power to choose. > > –Cliffy > > P.S. > Yes and yes. Well, if we concede the point that they don’t have free will - then \*somebody \*must have executed free will on their behalf to make them fallen. Who? God? If so, doesn’t that sorta make him, well, crazy? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-fallen-angels-repent-be-forgiven/332987/40 "2005-12-02T03:43:42Z")
I read once that when Pope John XXIII invited Protestant observers to the Second Vatican Council, a conservative cardinal objected. CARDINAL: Holy Father, they are heretics! POPE: Do not say “heretics,” my son. Say “separated brethren.” CARDINAL: They are league with the Devil! POPE: Do not say “devil,” my son. Say “separated angel.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-fallen-angels-repent-be-forgiven/332987.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-fallen-angels-repent-be-forgiven/332987.md?page=3)