# Can gays go straight? Science says yes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2001, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878 "2001-05-09T14:50:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2001, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/181 "2001-05-12T00:02:44Z")
Re: **Polycarp’s** mention of **the Paulks** as an example of a couple who have adapted contently to heterosexuality… It may be worth noting in this context that John Paulk was seen and confronted in a gay bar on Dupont Circle in DC a few months ago. It sure seems like his “reparative therapy” didn’t take quite as well as he wishes most of us to think… jayjay ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2001, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/182 "2001-05-12T00:35:39Z")
**RE: THE GAY LIFESTYLE** Here’s what I did today: Woke up in my suburban house, took a shower, got dressed, had two cups of coffee, drove to my sales job, goofed around a little cause it’s Friday, ate my brown-bag lunch, called on some customers, and came home. After work, I checked the boards, and tonight I’m having some beers, grilling outside, and watching the Cubs. Bedtime by 11. Tomorrow, I’ll do some chores around the house and run some errands. Maybe catch the Cubs game. Maybe go out for dinner. Sunday, I’m going out with my parents and brother to celebrate Mother’s Day. BTW, I’m gay. With a partner of more than 11 years. So what? My activities are, with random variations, _exactly the same as MILLIONS OF OTHER PEOPLE._ I don’t live a “gay lifestyle” because ONE DOESN’T EXIST; I live my lifestyle. Please get over it. Cubs 1 Cards 0 2nd inning 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2001, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/183 "2001-05-12T00:43:21Z")
Well… Thanks, Tris! It appears we were on the same wavelength, but you addressed the invalidity of the study in much more cogent language than I was able to muster – and with far greater thoroughness. **Jayjay** , I mentioned the Paulks on purpose, being well aware of that instance – they are clearly a “formerly gay” couple living in an apparently “stable heterosexual relationship” who (or at least he) have not changed orientation. In short, it’s a clear disproof of the inference **puddleglum** makes from the study, regardless of the study’s validity. (By the way, I owe you an apology for mistaking you for **jarbabyj** over on the other thread. The similarity in names tripped me up – and you both like guys, too. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2001, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/184 "2001-05-12T01:05:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*Well… > > Thanks, Tris! It appears we were on the same wavelength, but you addressed the invalidity of the study in much more cogent language than I was able to muster – and with far greater thoroughness. > > Jayjay, I mentioned the Paulks on purpose, being well aware of that instance – they are clearly a “formerly gay” couple living in an apparently “stable heterosexual relationship” who (or at least he) have not changed orientation. In short, it’s a clear disproof of the inference puddleglum makes from the study, regardless of the study’s validity. (By the way, I owe you an apology for mistaking you for jarbabyj over on the other thread. The similarity in names tripped me up – and you both like guys, too. 😉 \*\* Then I misread it and it’s my mistake, Polycarp. Mea culpa. 😃 And as far as being mistaken for jarbaby goes, as I said, it can only improve my perceived stature. 🙂 jayjay ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2001, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/185 "2001-05-12T01:06:11Z")
Puddleglum, please read [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=70675). Hopefully it’ll give you some idea of what’s wrong with “gay conversion” Fenris ---
**Author:** ![FunkDaddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc79bd/32.png) [@FunkDaddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FunkDaddy)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2001, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/186 "2001-05-12T01:26:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by puddleglum \* > If more research is done into what the most effective forms of therapy are then the abusive types of therapy will die out as people give them up for the effective type. **Just as ECT was abandoned when more effective therapies were developed. That is one reason why further research in this area is critical. More research needs to be done so that we can know who can be helped and how to help them.** Repeating change is impossible over and over does no one any good and just ensures ignorance will win out. Ok… everyone else has done a _lovely_ job of pointing out that the study you started this debacle over is currently being used as a snotrag by informed readers. I’ll take you up on the bolded witnugget, which andygirl (I believe) mentioned briefly: ECT is still **widely** used to treat resistant depression. It has a greater success rate than drug therapy, possibly because it’s usually used in situations where drug therapy has failed and psychotherapies are showing little progress. As a last-resort treatment for depression it’s almost golden, with over 70% success rates (my source is the Handbook of Depression, 2nd Ed.). Some would argue that the temporary side effects of an ECT regimen (retrograde amnesia and general disorientation lasting up to ~2 weeks is normal) are much preferable to being medicated for what might be a significant period of time, during which you could have a restricted diet, sexual side effects, headaches, etc. etc. etc. There are those who **choose** ECT over medications. [personal opinion]The only possible reason homosexuals could want to be straight, I figure, is because the knuckledraggers in society gives them such a rough go of it. Some people can still thrive under those conditions, others cannot and become confused, angry, etc. If society reacted to both the same way, why would anyone want to switch? There would be no pressure.[/personal opinion] If I’m missing the boat with my opinion, someone give me feedback. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2001, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/187 "2001-05-12T02:10:08Z")
Poly, I found our simulpost interesting, as well. I appreciate your kind words, but I doubt that I will be more able to reach this person. His mind appears to have been made up long ago. Insisting that only one possible reason can exist for a difference of opinion is a common tactic for those who prefer not to be challenged. From the title of the thread I suspected that an overstatement was probable, even before examining the substance of the study. Science seldom speaks in such generalities. Things deteriorated rapidly from that inauspicious beginning. Tris ---
**Author:** ![486](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/ecccb3/32.png) [@486](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/486)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2001, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/188 "2001-05-12T05:44:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andygirl \* > I wish that I could just laugh at this study and dismiss it because of it’s obvious flaws. > > I can’t. > > I can’t because I just got a hysterical email from a 16 year old kid who got into a fight with her parents because they don’t think she tried hard enough to be straight. Now she’s scared that they might try to send her to conversion therapy. And I just know that countless well meaning parents and confused kids are going to get their heads and lives fucked with because of this mess. > > I’m so angry I can barely stand it. That’s one of the problems with this sort of ‘study’. A parent may see it as ‘the kid can be changed’ and then try to force them into this so-called therapy…that could result in the poor kid running away from home…or worse - suicide. I remember once seeing a gay news (the TV was left on from a another show) type program on the TV where they showed that a large percentage of teenage run-aways and suicides were gays. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2001, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/189 "2001-05-12T06:10:13Z")
Variants of what andygirl said do happen. I came out to my family when I was 17. My mother got me thrown out of my grandmother’s house saying it was “Tough Love.” She thought being on my own would “straighten me out.” What it did was get me to lose my virginity to my first boyfriend. The rift between us could be measured in light years. She still thinks she did nothing wrong by throwing me out on the street and making me live in parks and sleep under bushes. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2001, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/190 "2001-05-12T19:41:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jayjay \* > **It may be worth noting in this context that John Paulk was seen and confronted in a gay bar on Dupont Circle in DC a few months ago. It sure seems like his “reparative therapy” didn’t take quite as well as he wishes most of us to think…** You can read about it [here.](http://www.southernvoice.com/southernvoice/news/record.html?record=10262) [Betty Bowers](http://www.bettybowers.com/bashpaulk.html/) has a couple of “before” pictures of John Paulk. (If you aren’t familiar with Betty Bowers, you are probably a sinner going to Hell at the speed of light. You’ve heard of ex-gay minsitries? Betty has an [Ex-Negro Ministry!](http://www.bettybowers.com/bigots.html) Praise Jesus!) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2001, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/191 "2001-05-12T21:32:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by puddleglum \* > \*\* > I would like this study to be a prod to more research so that one day this whole area sexual preference will be better underestood. Because we know that a certain number of homosexuals are dissatisfied with their lifestyle. Contrary to some who are convinced that they do, we do not know why they find this lifestyle unfulfilling, but they do. \*\* Interesting point. But if that’s true…I dunno…it might possibly be worthwhile to find out why they’re dissatified before we prescribe heterosexuality as the cure. Ya think? Come to think of it, I’m feeling rather unfufilled in my lifestyle. My love life is failing to fill my emotional needs. I’m dissatified. No doubt a conversion to homosexuality will make me the person I desire to be. ---
**Author:** ![YOZZER2001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/df705f/32.png) [@YOZZER2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YOZZER2001)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2001, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/192 "2001-05-13T00:58:12Z")
all homosexuals are abnormal i.e anything which deviates from the norm is abnormal so it should not bother any NORMAL PERSON what these abnormalities get up to ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2001, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/193 "2001-05-13T04:46:54Z")
Yozzer certainly is abnormal ---
**Author:** ![486](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/ecccb3/32.png) [@486](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/486)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2001, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/194 "2001-05-13T06:20:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hastur \* > > I came out to my family when I was 17. My mother got me thrown out of my grandmother’s house saying it was “Tough Love.” She thought being on my own would “straighten me out.” > > What it did was get me to lose my virginity to my first boyfriend. > > The rift between us could be measured in light years. She still thinks she did nothing wrong by throwing me out on the street and making me live in parks and sleep under bushes. Maybe I’m more open-minded than most, but I cant understand how any parent could throw their own son out on the street simply because he’s gay. It’s really sad to hear about when that happens I know that some think it will ‘ruin’ the family having a gay kid in the house, but isn’t throwing the kid out doing just that without even giving it a chance? A big part of the problem probably comes from the homophobia spewed by ‘anti-gay’ groups. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/195 "2001-05-14T13:55:38Z")
I must say my faith has been shaken. I always thought amoungst the dopers there would be a broad base of knowledge on any subject imaginable. But it would seem I am the only one who has any knowledge of qualitative approachs to social research. Either that or those who do know about it have avoided this thread to because they didn’t want to be called names. So in the interest of defending this style of research and educating my fellow dopers I have found a link that describes this type of research in detail. Though it was written for an academic audience it seems well written enough to be understood by the layman. The page I am linking to has links in the upper left to the other pages describing qualititative methodology and the strengths and weaknesses inherent in this form of research. [http://trochim.human.cornell.edu/kb/qual.htm](http://trochim.human.cornell.edu/kb/qual.htm) I would also like to apologize for my use of the word abandonment in conjunction with ECT. As has been pointed out it is a very effective treatment for some forms of severe depression and has been unfairly stigamatized in popular culture. What I was referring to was the use of ECT to treat almost any psychiatric disorder because of a lack viable alternatives. ---
**Author:** ![Pabitel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbce88/32.png) [@Pabitel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pabitel)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/196 "2001-05-14T14:27:35Z")
The conservative columnists have a hold of the story. Ok Sherman lets step into the wayback machine. Set the dial to 1950. The wonderful Cal Thomas who makes Reagan look like FDR came out this weekend with a wonderful little diatribe where he uses the argument that Dr. Spitzer must be right because every other expert in the field is calling his study unscientific. You can read it yourself at: > **[Cal Thomas: Biography and Latest Articles - Cal Thomas](https://townhall.com/columnists/calthomas/)** > > Cal Thomas is one of America's most widely syndicated op-ed columnists, and his column is now syndicated by Tribune Media Services in Chicago. For sixteen years Cal Thomas's column was distributed by the Los Angeles Times Syndicate. So much for the scientific debate. Now there is no reason we should not be completely gay free as a society in the next ten years. After all, all of you homosexuals out there are really just heterosexuals with insufficient motivation. Sheesh! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Pabitel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbce88/32.png) [@Pabitel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pabitel)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/197 "2001-05-14T14:33:34Z")
The conservative columnists have a hold of the story. Ok Sherman lets step into the wayback machine. Set the dial to 1950. The wonderful Cal Thomas who makes Reagan look like FDR came out this weekend with a wonderful little diatribe where he uses the argument that Dr. Spitzer must be right because every other expert in the field is calling his study unscientific. You can read it yourself at: > **[Cal Thomas: Biography and Latest Articles - Cal Thomas](https://townhall.com/columnists/calthomas/)** > > Cal Thomas is one of America's most widely syndicated op-ed columnists, and his column is now syndicated by Tribune Media Services in Chicago. For sixteen years Cal Thomas's column was distributed by the Los Angeles Times Syndicate. So much for the scientific debate. Now there is no reason we should not be completely gay free as a society in the next ten years. After all, all of you homosexuals out there are really just heterosexuals with insufficient motivation. Sheesh! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/198 "2001-05-14T14:37:54Z")
Assuming, arguendo, that Dr. Spitzer’s study was intended as qualitative research, then it was at best disingenous of you to claim that it “proved that gays can go straight” as you did in your OP. Qualitative research doesn’t prove anything; it just documents some corner of the field without making probative conclusions. Either Dr. Spitzer misrepresented his study, or you did, or both. If we assume that Dr. Spitzer’s study is qualitative ethnographic research, then all it proves is that “some people who claim to have previously been gay now claim to be straight and claim to have satisfactory sex lives”. This falls far short of the claim made in the OP or in Spitzer’s announcement. Do you intend to answer any of the points made to you by previous posters, or are you just going to continue to pretend that all of us are too stupid to justify your attention? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/199 "2001-05-14T14:37:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by puddleglum \* > \*\*I must say my faith has been shaken. I always thought amoungst the dopers there would be a broad base of knowledge on any subject imaginable. But it would seem I am the only one who has any knowledge of qualitative approachs to social research. \*\* ah, yes, the ‘everyone except me is wrong’ approach. It works so well. as for the link to the ‘quantitative research’ page, I lifted the following quote: > [@](#): > > Because much qualitative research takes an enormous amount of time, is very labor intensive, and **yields results that may not be as generalizable for policy-making or decision-making** , emphasis mine. and here we have **puddles** leading the charge to take, in essence, a telephone poll and extrapolate from that essential truths calling it science. The point made by your link was that the type of ‘research’ may have some benefit for those who are attempting to get a grasp on generalities of the issues, but (quoting above) results were not necessarily generalizable. which makes sense. You can get a nice idea of what these specific individuals thought/felt but one should not attempt to generalize their experiences to any one else (why does this seem so familiar? oh, yeah, it’s cause for 4 pages, all the other ‘less knowledgable folk’ have been trying to point out to you the lack of substantiation for extrapolating the results of this poll to the general population) ---
**Author:** ![aubries](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@aubries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aubries)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/200 "2001-05-14T14:48:11Z")
While this study could certainly be viewed as a valuable qualitative analysis of the phenomenon of trying to alter sexual orientation, I would like to draw something to your attention. The one piece of information which leaps out at us all, from the study, from the media and from you, Puddle, is… (wait for it) A number. 66%! 66%! Look! They can change! Please. As this is the emphasis of the publicity, this study is, by definition, quantitative. I have not had the opportunity to read the study itself, just its media hype, so I concede that it may have been the researcher’s intention to present this as an examination of what it’s like to change, not a predictor of the potential for change. That certainly hasn’t been the spin, and more to the point, that certainly hasn’t been your intention on this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878.md?page=11)