# Can gays go straight? Science says yes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2001, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878 "2001-05-09T14:50:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/101 "2001-05-11T14:42:52Z")
um…It also hurts her in that she would be subjected to who-knows-what kind of abuse or attempted brain washing. Not to mention the self esteema ttack inherant in the “ytoure-not’good-enough-you-must-change” mind set. ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/102 "2001-05-11T14:48:11Z")
You have no clue whatsoever. If a kid goes to conversion therapy, bad things happen. Some places attatch electrodes to a person’s genitals and shock them while showing them pictures of naked people of the same gender. The constant message is that you are an unworthy, unholy sinner who is going to die and burn. Some of the places actually have parents turn over legal guardianship to them and proceed to control and monitor every aspect of the person’s life. This process has been denounced thoroughly. Two of the fonders of one of the “ex-gay” groups denounced it. I didn’t want to be gay. There have been times in my life where I have stayed up all night praying to be straight until I literally passed out on my bed. I tried to date boys. I was about as motivated as they come. And I still like girls. Gay people can’t change who they are. They can delude themselves and change their behavior. Others in this thread have criticized the study better than I can- you might want to re-read, puddleglum. And while you’re at it, quit trying to make yourself noble. You are not the messenger of scientific truth. People are reacting this way because there are flaws in the study, not because of what the study says. I am sick and tired of having to justify my existence. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/103 "2001-05-11T14:49:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by puddleglum \* > \*\*Well, it hurts her in that she might be forced to waste some of her time and her parent’s money but she can not be forced to give up women for the rest of her life which was what I was referring to. \*\* wrong. To have an advesary relationship with your parents over something that you didn’t choose, but they feel will put your soul into eternal damnation, and if only you were ‘properly motivated’ is significantly damaging. ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/104 "2001-05-11T15:00:51Z")
Are you aware of how much control parents have over their children? An extremely high percentage of homeless teens in major cities are queer. They were kicked out because they were gay. If my parents suddenly decided that they didn’t like that I wasn’t “motivated enough,” they could tell me never to come home. They could also stop paying my tuition. I’m 18. Both of these things are perfectly legal. There is simply no way that I could pay for any college if they did that, let alone the school I attend. Not on my own. Oh, and I couldn’t be considered a financial independant because I wasn’t when I entered my school. I know gay people who have been disowned from their families, kicked out the day they turned 18, thrown out as minors, and who have been forced to drop out of school. I know some gay people whose parents have or have tried to commit them. Are you saying that none of these things are damaging? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/105 "2001-05-11T15:19:56Z")
If more research is done into what the most effective forms of therapy are then the abusive types of therapy will die out as people give them up for the effective type. Just as ECT was abandoned when more effective therapies were developed. That is one reason why further research in this area is critical. More research needs to be done so that we can know who can be helped and how to help them. Repeating change is impossible over and over does no one any good and just ensures ignorance will win out. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/106 "2001-05-11T15:47:12Z")
OK, Here’s something interesting: a study just released that came to the opposite conclusions as the one puddleglum is discussing. > **[MSNBC News - Breaking News and News Today | Latest News](https://www.msnbc.com/)** > > MSNBC breaking news and the latest news for today. Get daily news from local news reporters and world news updates with live audio & video from our team. > [@](#): > > The debate over whether sexual orientation is a choice was reignited this week with the release of two new—and opposing—studies on the outcome of “reparative” therapies, which purport to convert gays and lesbians into heterosexuals. Both papers were released in New Orleans on Wednesday at the annual meeting of the American Psychiatric Association, the group that ruled in 1973 that homosexuality is not a mental disorder that requires treatment. Neither study has been peer-reviewed or published. > [@](#): > > However, a similar study—conducted by Columbia psychologist Ariel Shidlo and Michael Schroeder, a psychologist in private practice in Manhattan—studied 202 participants and found 178 failures… For this study, the doctors also wanted participants who had gone through conversion therapy—but this time they looked for them randomly, via the Internet, newspaper ads and groups offering reparative counseling. The interviews were 90 minutes long, twice the length of Spitzer’s. > [@](#): > > Schroeder: Of the 202 individuals we interviewed, only six people—or 3 percent—achieved what you and I would think of as a successful shift. They were functioning heterosexuals, they were happy, content, had little difficulty with fleeting homosexual desire… That tells me that this kind of heterosexual shift is difficult and extremely rare. > Shidlo: And I should add, five of those six made their living as conversion counselors and do a lot of speaking on this topic. > [@](#): > > Schroeder: [W]e asked whether they had withheld any information from their therapists, and it was not uncommon for them to say that they had lied to their therapists to please them. > Shidlo: Many said the only way to quit was to pretend that they had succeeded. That explains why some surveys have shown that these therapists have a very high success rate. > Schroeder: We also had students at religious universities tell us that they had been mandated into therapy as a requirement of completing their education or continuing to receive financial aid. Some of them said they had to mislead their therapist in order to graduate or get their checks. This was especially true at Mormon institutions. > [@](#): > > The bible of the psychotherapeutic world—the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, or DSM—hasn’t listed homosexuality for decades. So why do therapists still offer conversion help? > Shidlo: For one thing, there’s a demand for the service. Secondly, there’s a sizable group of people in our field [psychiatry] whose religious and moral beliefs tell them that a homosexual orientation is sinful or socially bad—and those are the therapists offering these services. We asked our subjects if their therapists had discussed the APA position with them, and the majority said no. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/107 "2001-05-11T15:58:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by puddleglum \* > \*\*Well, it hurts her in that she might be forced to waste some of her time and her parent’s money but she can not be forced to give up women for the rest of her life which was what I was referring to. \*\* Puddleglum, one form in which this so-called “conversion therapy” takes amounts to repeatedly raping the “patient”. This so-called “study” acts to provide support for therapies like this, whether or not Dr. Spitzer intended it to. I have no doubt that there exists some small number of individuals who previously identified as gay who now identify as straight after having gone through therapy. My own self-identification has changed several times as I’ve discovered my own identity. This proves nothing; and yet this study will be trotted forth by the advocates of conversion therapy as proof that their therapies work – even though it provides no such proof. THAT is the problem with this study. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/108 "2001-05-11T16:01:43Z")
So we have two studies one with a success rate of 20% and the other of 3%. Obviously there needs to be more study of what differentiates the successful therapies from the unsuccesfull ones so that these success rates can be made higher. No one is suggesting that this process will be easy but now that we know this is possible we can build on this foundation. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/109 "2001-05-11T16:05:39Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **puddleglum** _ > > I guess I misunderstood your previous post as arguing that being gay or straight is not a choice. Thank you for clarifying. This study also backs your theory that it is a choice, though of course further research is needed to actually prove this. My god, you’re dim. Sexual orientation is not a choice. Sexual behavior is a choice. Therefore, one can be homosexual but act heterosexual, i.e., have sex with members of the opposite sex. It does not in any way change the fact that their orientation is still homosexual. Similarly, if one’s sexual orientation is bisexual, i.e., being attracted to members of both sexes, it is entirely possible for one to modify one’s behavior to have sex with only members of the opposite sex, therefore appearing to that individual that they have chosen their sexual orientation, when in fact they have only made a decision regarding their sexual behavior. I understand you may be having trouble getting that through your thick skull, but there it is. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/110 "2001-05-11T16:08:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by puddleglum \* > \*\*If more research is done into what the most effective forms of therapy are then the abusive types of therapy will die out as people give them up for the effective type. Just as ECT was abandoned when more effective therapies were developed. That is one reason why further research in this area is critical. More research needs to be done so that we can know who can be helped and how to help them. Repeating change is impossible over and over does no one any good and just ensures ignorance will win out. \*\* Electroshock therapy is still in use by these groups and will be used in the forseeable future. They have no reason to have “more humane” kinds of therapy, and the study does not address this. Furthermore, the author of the study (if you read the story again) states that he does not believe in conversion therapy. Two things that you are doing: You’re saying that the study is perfect. You’re saying that being gay is something that needs to be “helped”. I never said you can’t change behaviour. You just can’t change who you are. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/111 "2001-05-11T16:09:50Z")
Puddleglum, you wrote: > [@](#): > > Again the point of the study is not that these programs are 100% effective, the point is whether they are effective at all. And, from your OP: > [@](#): > > In it he concludes that gay people can turn straight if they are highly motivated and that a mental health professional can help them in this process. The effectiveness of conversion therapies is not addressed by this study in any quantitative fashion at all. In order to prove that these types of programs were **the method that was effective in creating these changes in the people interviewed** , a control group of people who had not been subjected to these methods was necessary. Comparisons needed to be drawn between the normal variation of sexual expression in people not exposed to these programs, and “success stories” presented by the movements associated with conversion therapies. It’s widely acknowledged that people can change their sexual behavior in the normal course of their lives. It’s a common phenomenon; people in prison experiencing gay sex, adolescents going through a period of experimentation, etc. Sexual behavior changes. Nobody here is denying that. How can you state that these “conversion” methods work, based on this study, when the study doesn’t poll people who haven’t been exposed to the same methods? Any group of people changes significantly over the course of time. And these participants had been in various types of “conversion” therapy for a significant period: “Those efforts had begun about 14 years before the interviews for the men and 12 years for the women.” What’s to say their orientation changed **for the reasons stated in the conclusion of the study?** I appreciate you complimenting my questions in each of your replies. I agree with you in that more research needs to be done. I would like to suggest that you review the arguments presented so far in this thread, and ask yourself if the study in question actually proves anything that isn’t already widely acknowledged. Then reread the sensationalist article that accompanied its release, and wonder what the motivations behind the article are. Then I’d like to draw your attention to the following line of your OP. > [@](#): > > This should silence the sexual fascists who say that gays who are unhappy in their lifestyle choices should not be allowed to try to change their sexual preference. I think it’s been amply demonstrated here that no such sexual fascists exist. I believe everyone here acknowledges that pretty much every aspect of a person’s psyche is susceptible to change over the course of a lifetime. Sexual behavior is no exception. But the conversion therapies you espouse are not proven effective by this study. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/112 "2001-05-11T16:15:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > \*\* > > Puddleglum, one form in which this so-called “conversion therapy” takes amounts to repeatedly raping the “patient”. This so-called “study” acts to provide support for therapies like this, whether or not Dr. Spitzer intended it to. > > I have no doubt that there exists some small number of individuals who previously identified as gay who now identify as straight after having gone through therapy. My own self-identification has changed several times as I’ve discovered my own identity. This proves nothing; and yet this study will be trotted forth by the advocates of conversion therapy as proof that their therapies work – even though it provides no such proof. THAT is the problem with this study. > \*\* So what your saying is that science shouldn’t be done and we should not try to help people because someone somewhere may misuse the results. Glad you weren’t around 100 years ago. “Sorry Mr. Ford, You can’t mass produce the car because someone might try to drive one after drinking and innocent people could get hurt” “Sorry, Mr. Edison you can’t invent the motion picture camera because someone may use it to film an Andy Kaufman biopic” ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/113 "2001-05-11T16:16:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by puddleglum \* > \*\*So we have two studies one with a success rate of 20% and the other of 3%. Obviously there needs to be more study of what differentiates the successful therapies from the unsuccesfull ones so that these success rates can be made higher. No one is suggesting that this process will be easy but now that we know this is possible we can build on this foundation. \*\* Because obviously the rate needs to be close to 100% so that there are very few icky gay people running around. Good lord, man. **This study did not say that conversion therapy was a good idea or that it was successful. The author says that he does not support conversion therapy.** ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/114 "2001-05-11T16:19:34Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **puddleglum** _ > > Obviously there needs to be more study of what differentiates the successful therapies from the unsuccesfull ones _so that these success rates can be made higher._ No one is suggesting that this process will be easy but now that we know this is possible we can build on this foundation. {emphasis mine} Careful, dear - your agenda is showing. Pray tell, _why_ must these “success rates” be made higher? Your bigotry continues to astound us all. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/115 "2001-05-11T16:20:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by puddleglum \* > **So what your saying is that science shouldn’t be done and we should not try to help people because someone somewhere may misuse the results.** And this is science because? It hasn’t even been peer-reviewed. What do you have to say to the other study, puddle? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/116 "2001-05-11T16:27:10Z")
\*\* Mr. Visible\*\* I would direct your attention to the excerpts Esprix posted from the APA website, which state unequivocally that therapy can not change sexual preference. So there are people who do argue that gays can not go straight and that sexual preference is unchangeable. In that same excerpts the APA seems to equate conversion therapy with homophobia. I would also direct your attention to the vitriol directed at the practitioners of this therapy by earlier posters. It seems as though some on this very board would prefer that these therapists be shut down and unhappy homosexuals be left without help. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/117 "2001-05-11T16:35:32Z")
There is a lot of therapy available for unhappy homosexuals, but it involves self-acceptance and self-love, two cornerstones of _proven, successful therapy techniques_. Tell me, **puddle** , if it is true that one’s sexual orientation cannot be changed but that one’s sexual behavior can, do you advocate changing that behavior? Why? Esprix ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/118 "2001-05-11T16:37:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > \*\* > > Pray tell, _why_ must these “success rates” be made higher? > > Your bigotry continues to astound us all. > > Esprix \*\* If a gay person is unhappy and unfulfilled and goes into therapy there are two scenarios either it works or it does not. If it works and he goes on to a happy and fullfilled life as a straight that is a success. If it does not work he has wasted his time and money and is still unhappy and unfulfilled. Which is the better and more desirable outcome? Obviously the client being happy and fulfilled. After reading your post I hope that Mr Visible no longer doubts the existence of sexual fascists. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/119 "2001-05-11T16:39:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by puddleglum \* > \*\*I would also direct your attention to the vitriol directed at the practitioners of this therapy by earlier posters. It seems as though some on this very board would prefer that these therapists be shut down and unhappy homosexuals be left without help. \*\* Goodness, how horrible that we queer folk have such vitriol for a group of practitioners who have, throughout the last 27 years, caused physical, mental, emotional and social pain to countless members of our orientational family who were driven to these quacks by pressure from their birth family, church, workmates and supervisors, and by society’s disapproval in general. For many of these people, “reparative” therapy was a last desperate stop before suicide. When some of the more fundamentally honest realize that they have to either lie about what they feel or admit that they can’t change, they do commit suicide, because after all, it must be their fault…these therapies work! Before you try to tell us that the desired default rate for success of converting gays and lesbians is 100%, kindly _clenches fists_ no…not here. I’m going to the Pit, puddleglum. I do wish you’d follow me…I have something to say to you and all of those on this board and in real life who “have your (philosophical) back” on this one. jayjay ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878/120 "2001-05-11T16:39:07Z")
I’d like an answer to my analysis of the study cited in your OP, in which I questioned its validity as a method of determining the efficacy of the conversion therapies you’re so fond of. Re-read my last post, and then tell me what the study really proves in regards to conversion therapies. Then if you want to continue this discussion, please supply evidence that proves that conversion therapies are effective. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gays-go-straight-science-says-yes/64878.md?page=7)