# Can genetic engineering produce a kosher pig? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 23, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168 "2010-08-23T16:15:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/21 "2010-08-23T22:21:50Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Who needs genetic engineering? What about [mulefoot pigs](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulefoot)? The problem with a standard pig is not the hooves – indeed, it has the hooves of a kosher animal. The problem with a pig is that it’s not a ruminant. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/22 "2010-08-23T22:24:00Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > > [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > > > Might not the rule of “haYotzei min haTamei, Tamei\*…” come into play? So that even if you could genetically engineer a pig fetus to be a ruminant, having come from standard pig parents, it would still be non-kosher. […] > > > > (\*Translation: That which comes from something nonkosher is nonkosher). > > By that reasoning, no animals are kosher, since every animal which is otherwise kosher today was ultimately descended (if one goes far enough back) from ancestors which were not kosher. Granted. Nonetheless, one would presume then that God would not say that we can eat animals X, Y and Z. Since Jewish tradition tells us that God said there were animals we could eat, He obviously did not consider non-kosher evolutionary ancestors to be a problem. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/23 "2010-08-23T22:28:44Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > The OP is laboring under the assumption that the laws of what is/isn’t kosher follow some kind of rigorously consistent logic . . . and all you have to do is alter reality, and the laws are altered as well. I haven’t found that to be the case in any religion. Then you haven’t read enough about Judaism. Rules are in place, they do follow consistent logic, and applying them to new situations is done all the time. See, for example, [Brave New Judaism](http://books.google.com/books?id=zYXcRVGNznEC&pg=PA208&lpg=PA208&dq=kosher+pig+genetics&source=bl&ots=QjvE-TjouO&sig=79wrNkwhaBZN7J0zaRo2iKPFrvA&hl=en&ei=3-9yTKrrO8P38AbNm6WODg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAg) and [Kosher Pork and Treif Tomatoes](http://www.wahrman.org/MIRY104.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/24 "2010-08-23T22:31:52Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > By that reasoning, no animals are kosher, since every animal which is otherwise kosher today was ultimately descended (if one goes far enough back) from ancestors which were not kosher. Or maybe the ultimate ancestor was kosher? We don’t know. We can deal with only the information we have. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/25 "2010-08-23T22:38:34Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > > [@psychonaut](#): > > > > By that reasoning, no animals are kosher, since every animal which is otherwise kosher today was ultimately descended (if one goes far enough back) from ancestors which were not kosher. > > Or maybe the ultimate ancestor was kosher? We don’t know. We can deal with only the information we have. No, the ultimate ancestor was some unicellular, or maybe even acellular, life form; it could have had neither hooves nor any means of chewing cud. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/26 "2010-08-23T22:41:03Z")
You know, it would be much, much easier to simply engineer a cow that tastes like pork. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/27 "2010-08-23T22:56:56Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > The problem with a standard pig is not the hooves – indeed, it has the hooves of a kosher animal. The problem with a pig is that it’s not a ruminant. > > Zev Steinhardt Yeah. Embarrassingly, I got it exactly backwards, and provided an example of an extra un-kosher pig. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/28 "2010-08-24T03:49:58Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > > [@Keeve](#): > > > > Or maybe the ultimate ancestor was kosher? We don’t know. We can deal with only the information we have. > > No, the ultimate ancestor was some unicellular, or maybe even acellular, life form; it could have had neither hooves nor any means of chewing cud. Wouldn’ta been a quadruped, though, so cud and hooves wouldn’t apply… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/29 "2010-08-24T05:05:24Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Doesn’t G-d specifically state, “The pig is not for you.”? > 🙂 Leviticus, feat. Yahweh as the Pork Nazi. No bacon for you ! ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/30 "2010-08-24T15:56:39Z")
Alessan: > [@](#): > > You know, it would be much, much easier to simply engineer a cow that tastes like pork. According to the Talmud, there is a kosher fish that tastes exactly like pork. That passage claims that there is some kosher source of every flavor that exists in non-kosher creatures. ---
**Author:** ![robcaro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@robcaro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robcaro)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/31 "2010-08-24T16:23:23Z")
A “kosher” pig is still a pig. Yes? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/32 "2010-08-24T16:35:18Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Alessan: > > > [@](#): > > > > You know, it would be much, much easier to simply engineer a cow that tastes like pork. > > According to the Talmud, there is a kosher fish that tastes exactly like pork. That passage claims that there is some kosher source of every flavor that exists in non-kosher creatures. The Talmud has been known to engage in wishful thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/33 "2010-08-24T16:45:03Z")
> [@robcaro](#): > > A “kosher” pig is still a pig. Yes? Define “pig”. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/34 "2010-08-24T17:05:36Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > > [@cmkeller](#): > > > > Chronos: > > > > In the sense that half of its foot is padded with skin on the bottom, making it effectively more of a claw than a hoof. What toes it has are split, that’s true, but it’s not (halachically) a true hoof. > > > > As to the OP, I suppose if the species is genuinely new, and produces young of its own kind, then if it has the characteristics of Kosher mammals, it would likely be accepted as Kosher. However, if it is interfertile with the non-kosher “parent” species, then it would probably be considered to still be a member of the forbidden species despite those characteristics. A freakish member, perhaps, but not distinct enough to be considered a new (and Kosher) animal. > > Chaim, > > Might not the rule of “haYotzei min haTamei, Tamei\*…” come into play? So that even if you could genetically engineer a pig fetus to be a ruminant, having come from standard pig parents, it would still be non-kosher. > > Or am I totally wrong on this? > Zev Steinhardt > > (\*Translation: That which comes from something nonkosher is nonkosher). Oh, so honey is not kosher. What about mother’s milk? Could’ve fooled me. A propos another post, there are fish, true fish, whose scales are vestigial and can be seen only under magnification. I think mackeral is one and there is some question whether it is kosher. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/35 "2010-08-24T17:20:36Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Oh, so honey is not kosher. Honey is kosher. The Talmud explains it by saying that bees don’t produce honey, they just store it in their bodies. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/36 "2010-08-24T17:59:43Z")
Alessan: > [@](#): > > The Talmud has been known to engage in wishful thinking. Or in this case, fishful thinking. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/37 "2010-08-24T18:18:07Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > > > Oh, so honey is not kosher. > > Honey is kosher. The Talmud explains it by saying that bees don’t produce honey, they just store it in their bodies. If bees don’t produce honey, where does the Talmud think it comes from? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/38 "2010-08-24T18:32:27Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > > Honey is kosher. The Talmud explains it by saying that bees don’t produce honey, they just store it in their bodies. > > If bees don’t produce honey, where does the Talmud think it comes from? Flowers. The bee takes the honey from the flower and stores it in its stomach. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/39 "2010-08-24T18:32:29Z")
Flowers? Technically, isn’t honey processed pollen? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/40 "2010-08-24T18:34:00Z")
Flowers, presumably. It can be considered concentrated nectar. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168.md?page=3)