# Can genetic engineering produce a kosher pig? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 23, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168 "2010-08-23T16:15:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/41 "2010-08-24T19:01:08Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Flowers? Technically, isn’t honey processed pollen? No, it’s effectively vomit consisting of partially-digested nectar. The pollen is just something that the flower sneakily attaches to the bee’s legs, and body as a way of getting its pollen over to the next flower the bee visits for another serving of nectar. Bees don’t care about the propagation of flower DNA. They care about getting nectar back to the hive. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/42 "2010-08-24T19:20:55Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > > [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > > > Chaim, > > > > Might not the rule of “haYotzei min haTamei, Tamei\*…” come into play? So that even if you could genetically engineer a pig fetus to be a ruminant, having come from standard pig parents, it would still be non-kosher. > > > > Or am I totally wrong on this? > > Zev Steinhardt > > > > (\*Translation: That which comes from something nonkosher is nonkosher). > > Oh, so honey is not kosher. What about mother’s milk? As others have already commented, honey is kosher. For that matter, so is mother’s milk – even for adults. I don’t know why, specifically, other than to perhaps speculate that humans are not subject to being kosher/non-kosher.\* Zev Steinhardt - There are other reason besides kashrus to prohibit cannibalism in non-life threatening situations. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/43 "2010-08-24T19:34:29Z")
> [@](#): > > No, it’s effectively vomit consisting of partially-digested nectar. Well, _that’s_ certainly putting things in the worst possible light. While technically honey is nectar that has been regurgitated, my understanding is that it’s almost completely Invert Sugar solution that has most of the water evaporated off – i.e. it’s plant fluid that has been concentrated, mainly, by passage into and out of the bee. They fan it with their wings to help evaporate water. In a way, it’s similar to maple syrup, which is plant fluid – in this case maple sap – that is concentrated by boiling off most of the water, and “digested” by the heat burning and caramelizing some of the sugar. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/44 "2010-08-24T20:01:23Z")
On the other hand, though, pig’s milk (or milk from another unclean animal; I don’t know which ones are actually milked in practice) would be unkosher, correct? ---
**Author:** ![davekhps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@davekhps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davekhps)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/45 "2010-08-24T20:55:15Z")
One thing to add to this thread: the possibility/likelihood that in the future we’ll be able to vat-grow meat of all kinds, completely skipping the animal debates. Then, we’ll get to hear rabbis (and imams, and PETA) debate whether vat-pig is acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/46 "2010-08-24T21:36:38Z")
The biggest kosher problem I’ve heard concerning vat-grown meat is the Noachide prohibition against eating the limb of the living. This would apply regardless of the species (if it can be said to be such) of the meat. And thinking back to an earlier point… > [@](#): > > According to the Talmud, there is a kosher fish that tastes exactly like pork. That passage claims that there is some kosher source of every flavor that exists in non-kosher creatures. But the Talmud was written by rabbis. How would they know? Either they’re violating their own rules, in which case why should I trust them on anything, or they’re taking a gentile’s word for it, and why should they trust the gentiles? If I were a rabbi, and someone said to me “Here, try this fish, it tastes just like pork”, I’d very much suspect that they were at least laughing at the gullible old rabbi, and possibly trying to trick me into eating something that really was pork. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/47 "2010-08-24T22:38:11Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > According to the Talmud, there is a kosher fish that tastes exactly like pork. That passage claims that there is some kosher source of every flavor that exists in non-kosher creatures. > > But the Talmud was written by rabbis. How would they know? Either they’re violating their own rules, in which case why should I trust them on anything, or they’re taking a gentile’s word for it, and why should they trust the gentiles? There are other possibilities: the rabbi making the claim is a convert to Judaism, and is familiar with the taste of non-kosher food from before his conversion; or perhaps the rabbi making the claim ate non-kosher food in an emergency (such as during a famine when no kosher food was available), which activity is condoned by Jewish doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/48 "2010-08-24T22:51:43Z")
The fish that tastes like pork, btw, is known in the Talmud as the shibuta. It’s probably _B. grypus_, most commonly known by its Arabic name, shabut, and found in the Tigris and Euphrates. And I think the idea that, for everything prohibited, there’s a kosher replacement, is a logical thing. Otherwise, Jews would be at a disadvantage over Gentiles, because Gentiles can eat non-kosher food. And, if God gives Gentiles the pleasure of non-kosher foods, isn’t he going to be at least as generous to the Jews, who are more scrupulous in obeying Him? ---
**Author:** ![cuberdon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/45deac/32.png) [@cuberdon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuberdon)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/49 "2010-08-25T00:07:27Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > > [@robcaro](#): > > > > A “kosher” pig is still a pig. Yes? > > Define “pig”. In the story referenced above, the rabbi’s Eureka moment comes while watching a promotional video about the k-pig. The k-pig cannot crossbreed with regular pigs, therefore technically is not actually a pig. ---
**Author:** ![Gil-Martin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Gil-Martin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gil-Martin)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/50 "2010-08-25T00:34:54Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > By the way, the ancient Egyptians and Sumerians thought the pig unclean, too, as do modern-day Muslims. Minor nit-pick here, but I happen to have just started reading Samuel Noah Kramer’s \*The Sumerians: Their History, Culture, and Character \*(an admittedly old book from 1971), in which the author specifically states that the Sumerians enjoyed pork. As I’m hardly a Sumerologist, I’ll leave it to someone else to let us know how reliable a source this is. Sorry for interrupting this interesting conversation. ---
**Author:** ![qazwart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/5fc32e/32.png) [@qazwart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qazwart)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/51 "2010-08-25T00:58:21Z")
Believe it or not, the question has been discussed. The question actually revolves around whether the animal is still considered a pig. If such an animal is classified as a pig, it won’t be kosher since pigs are one of the four species of animals mentioned that aren’t kosher. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/52 "2010-08-25T01:33:00Z")
Chronos: > [@](#): > > or they’re taking a gentile’s word for it, and why should they trust the gentiles? Why shouldn’t they? Why would a gentile lie about the comparative taste of a fish and pork? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/53 "2010-08-25T01:47:58Z")
Wouldn’t most Orthodox Rabbis be inclined to just build a _mishnah_ around this and be done with it? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/54 "2010-08-25T02:04:41Z")
> [@qazwart](#): > > it won’t be kosher since pigs are one of the four species of animals mentioned that aren’t kosher. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/55 "2010-08-25T02:22:56Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > > [@qazwart](#): > > > > it won’t be kosher since pigs are one of the four species of animals mentioned that aren’t kosher. > > 🙂 See post 15. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168/56 "2010-08-25T14:44:58Z")
> [@davekhps](#): > > One thing to add to this thread: the possibility/likelihood that in the future we’ll be able to vat-grow meat of all kinds, completely skipping the animal debates. > > Then, we’ll get to hear rabbis (and imams, and PETA) debate whether vat-pig is acceptable. I’ve actually asked this (I think on [askmoses.com](http://askmoses.com)) The answer was “Until they actually make vat meat and we know what the process will entail, we can’t give you an answer.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-genetic-engineering-produce-a-kosher-pig/551168.md?page=2)