Can genetic engineering produce a kosher pig?

[zev_steinhardt]

@pulykamell

Who needs genetic engineering? What about mulefoot pigs?

The problem with a standard pig is not the hooves – indeed, it has the hooves of a kosher animal. The problem with a pig is that it’s not a ruminant.

Zev Steinhardt

[zev_steinhardt]

@psychonaut

@zev_steinhardt

Might not the rule of “haYotzei min haTamei, Tamei*…” come into play? So that even if you could genetically engineer a pig fetus to be a ruminant, having come from standard pig parents, it would still be non-kosher. […]

(*Translation: That which comes from something nonkosher is nonkosher).

By that reasoning, no animals are kosher, since every animal which is otherwise kosher today was ultimately descended (if one goes far enough back) from ancestors which were not kosher.

Granted. Nonetheless, one would presume then that God would not say that we can eat animals X, Y and Z. Since Jewish tradition tells us that God said there were animals we could eat, He obviously did not consider non-kosher evolutionary ancestors to be a problem.

Zev Steinhardt

[Keeve]

@panache45

The OP is laboring under the assumption that the laws of what is/isn’t kosher follow some kind of rigorously consistent logic . . . and all you have to do is alter reality, and the laws are altered as well. I haven’t found that to be the case in any religion.

Then you haven’t read enough about Judaism. Rules are in place, they do follow consistent logic, and applying them to new situations is done all the time. See, for example, Brave New Judaism and Kosher Pork and Treif Tomatoes.

[Keeve]

@psychonaut

By that reasoning, no animals are kosher, since every animal which is otherwise kosher today was ultimately descended (if one goes far enough back) from ancestors which were not kosher.

Or maybe the ultimate ancestor was kosher? We don’t know. We can deal with only the information we have.

[psychonaut]

@Keeve

@psychonaut

By that reasoning, no animals are kosher, since every animal which is otherwise kosher today was ultimately descended (if one goes far enough back) from ancestors which were not kosher.

Or maybe the ultimate ancestor was kosher? We don’t know. We can deal with only the information we have.

No, the ultimate ancestor was some unicellular, or maybe even acellular, life form; it could have had neither hooves nor any means of chewing cud.

[Alessan]

You know, it would be much, much easier to simply engineer a cow that tastes like pork.

[pulykamell]

@zev_steinhardt

The problem with a standard pig is not the hooves – indeed, it has the hooves of a kosher animal. The problem with a pig is that it’s not a ruminant.

Zev Steinhardt

Yeah. Embarrassingly, I got it exactly backwards, and provided an example of an extra un-kosher pig. :smack:

[kaylasdad99]

@psychonaut

@Keeve

Or maybe the ultimate ancestor was kosher? We don’t know. We can deal with only the information we have.

No, the ultimate ancestor was some unicellular, or maybe even acellular, life form; it could have had neither hooves nor any means of chewing cud.

Wouldn’ta been a quadruped, though, so cud and hooves wouldn’t apply…

[Kobal2]

@carnivorousplant

Doesn’t G-d specifically state, “The pig is not for you.”?

Leviticus, feat. Yahweh as the Pork Nazi. No bacon for you !

[cmkeller]

Alessan:

You know, it would be much, much easier to simply engineer a cow that tastes like pork.

According to the Talmud, there is a kosher fish that tastes exactly like pork. That passage claims that there is some kosher source of every flavor that exists in non-kosher creatures.

[robcaro]

A “kosher” pig is still a pig. Yes?

[Alessan]

@cmkeller

Alessan:

You know, it would be much, much easier to simply engineer a cow that tastes like pork.

According to the Talmud, there is a kosher fish that tastes exactly like pork. That passage claims that there is some kosher source of every flavor that exists in non-kosher creatures.

The Talmud has been known to engage in wishful thinking.

[Telemark]

@robcaro

A “kosher” pig is still a pig. Yes?

Define “pig”.

[Hari_Seldon]

@zev_steinhardt

@cmkeller

Chronos:

In the sense that half of its foot is padded with skin on the bottom, making it effectively more of a claw than a hoof. What toes it has are split, that’s true, but it’s not (halachically) a true hoof.

As to the OP, I suppose if the species is genuinely new, and produces young of its own kind, then if it has the characteristics of Kosher mammals, it would likely be accepted as Kosher. However, if it is interfertile with the non-kosher “parent” species, then it would probably be considered to still be a member of the forbidden species despite those characteristics. A freakish member, perhaps, but not distinct enough to be considered a new (and Kosher) animal.

Chaim,

Might not the rule of “haYotzei min haTamei, Tamei*…” come into play? So that even if you could genetically engineer a pig fetus to be a ruminant, having come from standard pig parents, it would still be non-kosher.

Or am I totally wrong on this?
Zev Steinhardt

(*Translation: That which comes from something nonkosher is nonkosher).

Oh, so honey is not kosher. What about mother’s milk? Could’ve fooled me. A propos another post, there are fish, true fish, whose scales are vestigial and can be seen only under magnification. I think mackeral is one and there is some question whether it is kosher.

[Captain_Amazing]

@Hari_Seldon

Oh, so honey is not kosher.

Honey is kosher. The Talmud explains it by saying that bees don’t produce honey, they just store it in their bodies.

[cmkeller]

Alessan:

The Talmud has been known to engage in wishful thinking.

Or in this case, fishful thinking.

[psychonaut]

@Captain_Amazing

@Hari_Seldon

Oh, so honey is not kosher.

Honey is kosher. The Talmud explains it by saying that bees don’t produce honey, they just store it in their bodies.

If bees don’t produce honey, where does the Talmud think it comes from?

[Captain_Amazing]

@psychonaut

@Captain_Amazing

Honey is kosher. The Talmud explains it by saying that bees don’t produce honey, they just store it in their bodies.

If bees don’t produce honey, where does the Talmud think it comes from?

Flowers. The bee takes the honey from the flower and stores it in its stomach.

[Alessan]

Flowers? Technically, isn’t honey processed pollen?

[Chronos]

Flowers, presumably. It can be considered concentrated nectar.