# Can ghosts be scientifically proved to exist?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ghosts-be-scientifically-proved-to-exist/266917
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [September 30, 2004, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ghosts-be-scientifically-proved-to-exist/266917 "2004-09-30T20:25:58Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2004, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ghosts-be-scientifically-proved-to-exist/266917/1 "2004-09-30T20:25:58Z")
Apologies if this has been done before…
I have a lamp on my bedside table. Let’s say, for argument’s sake, that while I’m typing this, my lamp is lifted into the air and hurtled across the room, in such a way that it could only have been thrown by an invisible presence (i.e. it didn’t fall off by itself).
After gibbering and cowering and hiding in the closet for a minute or two, how could I prove–scientifically, concretely, absolutely, 100% beyond a doubt–that I have a ghost in my room throwing a lamp?
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2004, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ghosts-be-scientifically-proved-to-exist/266917/2 "2004-09-30T20:29:18Z")
Nothing can be scientifically proved to exist. Existence is a metaphysical claim.
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### Author:  [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2004, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ghosts-be-scientifically-proved-to-exist/266917/3 "2004-09-30T20:29:52Z")
Can Ghosts be scientifically proven to exist?
Not at this time.
In your situation all you would have as proof is your broken lamp and your story. That would not be considered proof. Even if you had video of that was authenticated, it could have been thrown by an invisible man and not a ghost. (spirit of a deceased person)
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2004, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ghosts-be-scientifically-proved-to-exist/266917/4 "2004-09-30T20:33:45Z")
> [@Kythereia](#):
>
> After gibbering and cowering and hiding in the closet for a minute or two, how could I prove–scientifically, concretely, absolutely, 100% beyond a doubt–that I have a ghost in my room throwing a lamp?
By following the [Scientific Method](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method).
Take some measurements or make some observations\*.
Develop a hypothesis (and define what a “ghost” is).
Make some predictions that can be verified.
Define an experiment to verify the prediction.
Repeat.
Publish in a peer review scientific journal.
Have other scientists repeat your results.
Accept your Nobel Prize!!
\*you already did this, somewhat, with your lamp incident.
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### Author:  [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2004, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ghosts-be-scientifically-proved-to-exist/266917/5 "2004-09-30T20:34:34Z")
**Liberal** –If nothing can be proved to exist, does that mean… I may be non-existent?? :eek: (Sweet! I wouldn’t have to take my test next week! :D)
**Zebra** –good point. 🙂
How would a scientist go about proving a ghost’s existense, dodging all the claims of pseudo-science? I guess he/she’d have to assume that ghosts are x (they’re cold, they can float, they’re invisible / intangible, they’re sentient beings) and go from there…
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### Author:  [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2004, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ghosts-be-scientifically-proved-to-exist/266917/6 "2004-09-30T20:35:36Z")
> [@John Mace](#):
>
> By following the [Scientific Method](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method).
>
> Take some measurements or make some observations\*.
> Develop a hypothesis (and define what a “ghost” is).
> Make some predictions that can be verified.
> Define an experiment to verify the prediction.
>
> Repeat.
>
> Publish in a peer review scientific journal.
>
> Have other scientists repeat your results.
>
> Accept your Nobel Prize!!
>
> \*you already did this, somewhat, with your lamp incident.
Meep!
Preview is my friend, preview is my friend…
:o
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2004, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ghosts-be-scientifically-proved-to-exist/266917/7 "2004-09-30T20:36:41Z")
> [@Kythereia](#):
>
> Meep!
>
> Preview is my friend, preview is my friend…
>
> :o
We had a near simulpost. Or maybe a ghost was invloved… 🙂
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### Author:  [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2004, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ghosts-be-scientifically-proved-to-exist/266917/8 "2004-09-30T20:37:57Z")
Sure. The proof doesn’t even have to be all that “scientific”. If the ghosts would simply agree to have a chat with a panel of skeptics, allow pictures to be taken, maybe levitate some objects or do other poltergeisty things on camera and in the presence of impartial witnesses, tell us some facts about the deceased person only the ghost of that deceased person could possibly know (yet could be verfied as reliable by friends or family, perhaps), and so on, there’s some pretty good proof that ghosts exist.
The ghosts, unfortunately, stubbornly refuse to provide even these simple examples of empirical evidence, and appear to prefer their mysterious identity as unverifiable phantasms.
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### Author:  [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2004, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ghosts-be-scientifically-proved-to-exist/266917/9 "2004-09-30T20:38:50Z")
The same ghost–who just tipped over my lamp!! :eek: :eek: :eek:
(No, actually, I just knocked it over by mistake with my elbow. :smack: :wally)
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### Author:  [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2004, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ghosts-be-scientifically-proved-to-exist/266917/10 "2004-09-30T20:41:25Z")
Gah. No luck today, I swear.
> [@Loopydude](#):
>
> Sure. The proof doesn’t even have to be all that “scientific”. If the ghosts would simply agree to have a chat with a panel of skeptics, allow pictures to be taken, maybe levitate some objects or do other poltergeisty things on camera and in the presence of impartial witnesses, tell us some facts about the deceased person only the ghost of that deceased person could possibly know (yet could be verfied as reliable by friends or family, perhaps), and so on, there’s some pretty good proof that ghosts exist.
>
> The ghosts, unfortunately, stubbornly refuse to provide even these simple examples of empirical evidence, and appear to prefer their mysterious identity as unverifiable phantasms.
How about a group of non-skeptics taking scientific measurements? (i.e. a group holds a seance, establishes no hoaxery or trickery beforehand, tapes / records the whole thing, and successfully talks to a ghost?)
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2004, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ghosts-be-scientifically-proved-to-exist/266917/11 "2004-09-30T20:44:58Z")
> [@Kythereia](#):
>
> How about a group of non-skeptics taking scientific measurements? (i.e. a group holds a seance, establishes no hoaxery or trickery beforehand, tapes / records the whole thing, and successfully talks to a ghost?)
Well, your OP asked how you could \*\*SCIENTIFICALLY \*\*prove that ghosts exist. If you do not actually use the Scientific Method, you will not have have proven anything scientifically. It’s really no more complicated than that.
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### Author:  [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2004, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ghosts-be-scientifically-proved-to-exist/266917/12 "2004-09-30T20:47:38Z")
> [@John Mace](#):
>
> Well, your OP asked how you could \*\*SCIENTIFICALLY \*\*prove that ghosts exist. If you do not actually use the Scientific Method, you will not have have proven anything scientifically. It’s really no more complicated than that.
Good point. :smack: So a group of believers using the Scientific Method?
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2004, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ghosts-be-scientifically-proved-to-exist/266917/13 "2004-09-30T20:49:54Z")
> [@Kythereia](#):
>
> Good point. :smack: So a group of believers using the Scientific Method?
Believers or non-believers, doesn’t matter. But it does have to be a group, since you will need to have others repeat your experiments. Remember “cold fusion”? No one else could repeat it.
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### Author:  [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2004, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ghosts-be-scientifically-proved-to-exist/266917/14 "2004-09-30T20:50:21Z")
If they’re doing the same thing that skeptics would do, their beliefs may be moot, but the reports might get more credence if skeptics were doing the observing…extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and all that.
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### Author:  [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2004, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ghosts-be-scientifically-proved-to-exist/266917/15 "2004-09-30T20:52:59Z")
A _group_ of believers, only natch. 😉
I’m wondering what kind of hypothesis they (the people proving the claim) could use. What can we assume about ghosts that can be proved?
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### Author:  [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2004, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ghosts-be-scientifically-proved-to-exist/266917/16 "2004-09-30T20:54:31Z")
Err…that they exist?
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### Author:  [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2004, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ghosts-be-scientifically-proved-to-exist/266917/17 "2004-09-30T20:57:12Z")
> [@Loopydude](#):
>
> Err…that they exist?
No, I mean–the attributes of ghosts. I know I’m a human being because I have two arms and legs, I have a heartbeat, I have a brain (although it tends to go missing a lot)…
I’m thinking in order to prove that my lamp being flung across a room is a ghost in action, the scientists’d have to agree on what makes a ghost a ghost.
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2004, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ghosts-be-scientifically-proved-to-exist/266917/18 "2004-09-30T21:00:18Z")
> [@Kythereia](#):
>
> **Liberal** –If nothing can be proved to exist, does that mean… I may be non-existent??
Please pay careful attention. Nothing can be \*\*scientifically \*\* proved to exist. Existence is a metaphysical claim. You can prove it only analytically.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2004, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ghosts-be-scientifically-proved-to-exist/266917/19 "2004-09-30T21:00:46Z")
[QUOTE=Kythereia]
\I’m thinking in order to prove that my lamp being flung across a room is a ghost in action, the scientists’d have to agree on what makes a ghost a ghost.[/QUOTE
That’s a very good point. Is the ghost just lifting the lamp and throwing it, or using telekenisis (sp?) to do it? If the latter, you’ve got 2 things to prove. What attributes define a ghost as opposed to a living person?
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### Author:  [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2004, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-ghosts-be-scientifically-proved-to-exist/266917/20 "2004-09-30T21:03:46Z")
> [@Liberal](#):
>
> Please pay careful attention. Nothing can be \*\*scientifically \*\* proved to exist. Existence is a metaphysical claim. You can prove it only analytically.
You make me want to take up metaphysics. 😛 😃
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