# Can God tear his own head off? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 23, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-god-tear-his-own-head-off/530197 "2010-02-23T23:59:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-god-tear-his-own-head-off/530197/21 "2010-02-24T01:02:04Z")
> [@Umbriel2](#): > > Commenting as an agnostic, it’s not clear to me what it takes away from a meaningful conception of God to simply state that God is _not_ omnipotent in senses that would be self-contradictory: He _can’t_ make a rock so big He can’t lift it; He _can’t_ destroy himself; He can’t contradict his own will, make a mistake, or do anything “wrong”; He _couldn’t_ create a universe without evil in it that would still permit human free will and otherwise serve his unguessable purposes… Such a God could remain “omnipotent” in the sense of being able to create and destroy matter at will, and intervene in the universe at any time and at level He chooses. > > Such a conception of God seems to me to fit together and to reconcile things like the existence of evil and the goodness of God a lot better than does insistence on an absolute definition of omnipotence. What does this have to do with the current thread? There’s nothing self-contradictory about suicide. People do it all the time. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-god-tear-his-own-head-off/530197/22 "2010-02-24T01:03:37Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > You guys hooting about the burritos and whatnot, do you realize that this is _not_ a logical contradiction under discussion? The OP doesn’t mention “eternal” - and without it, there is no contradiction. And there isn’t even necessarily one if you _do_ include it, since I don’t see any rule saying that God can’t change it’s own properties (in fact it’s my opinion that any God that can’t permanently remove its own powers isn’t omnipotent). > > So this isn’t a trick question - it’s a _valid_ question. Does (your conception of) the Chrisitan God have the capability to kill itself? And could the universe survive the event? I’ve heard conceptions where God is a fundamental part of the universe; one might posit that the universe would unravel if you yanked his thread out of it. Alternately, I’ve heard him descibed as basically separate and distinct. Could God define a word in such a way that the definition had nothing to do with the word? :eek: You’re talking some deep shit, man. Deeeeeeeeeep. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-god-tear-his-own-head-off/530197/23 "2010-02-24T01:04:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > God has a head? When and if He wants to… It’s part of that nonphysical, exempt from physical limitations thing. Now, about that superhot burrito… ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-god-tear-his-own-head-off/530197/24 "2010-02-24T01:07:41Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Could God define a word in such a way that the definition had nothing to do with the word? :eek: You’re talking some deep shit, man. Deeeeeeeeeep. > > :rolleyes: What in the hell are you talking about? It’s not **redefinition** to remove your own omnipotence. It’s a _change_. Obviously. Are you just trying to avoid admitting that this is a reasonable question, or are you actually failing to understand? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-god-tear-his-own-head-off/530197/25 "2010-02-24T01:10:02Z")
Doesn’t omnipotence sort of imply indestructibility? ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-god-tear-his-own-head-off/530197/26 "2010-02-24T01:10:25Z")
This shouldn’t even be a debate: an omnipotent god can kill itself. As for the results; those are entirely in the hands of that omnipotent god. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-god-tear-his-own-head-off/530197/27 "2010-02-24T01:11:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Could God define a word in such a way that the definition had nothing to do with the word? :eek: You’re talking some deep shit, man. Deeeeeeeeeep. > > :rolleyes: As **begbert2** keeps pointing out, there is no logical contradiction in the OP. In less silly terms: Can the Christian God choose to terminate his own existence and what would be the consequences for the universe if he did so? Can the Christian God choose to permanently change any of his properties? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-god-tear-his-own-head-off/530197/28 "2010-02-24T01:12:28Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Doesn’t omnipotence sort of imply indestructibility? Why should it? An omnipotent god coud _make_ itself indestructible (until it decides otherwise), but if it lacks the ability to make itself into a rickety glass pot or to disappear itself entirely, well, that’s a lack of an ability, a reduction in potency as it were. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-god-tear-his-own-head-off/530197/29 "2010-02-24T01:28:06Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Can the Christian God choose to permanently change any of his properties? I don’t know about the Christian God, but I think an omnimax god shouldn’t change or choose. It IS. If an omnimax God wanted itself dead, it would have always been dead. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-god-tear-his-own-head-off/530197/30 "2010-02-24T01:28:58Z")
Dunno - I was just thinking out loud really - certainly an omnipotent being would have to be resistant to externally-imposed change. If omnipotence is the only property on the table, then it’s not too complex, but if the being is assumed to have other properties, such as being perfect in every conceivable way, that makes it more difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-god-tear-his-own-head-off/530197/31 "2010-02-24T01:34:12Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Doesn’t omnipotence sort of imply indestructibility? Nope; it would only be indestructible if it wanted to be. But it does imply that such a creature could destroy itself, then come back. > [@Mangetout](#): > > Dunno - I was just thinking out loud really - certainly an omnipotent being would have to be resistant to externally-imposed change. Only it decided to be. Take away the God baggage for a moment; you’ve got Bob the normal guy with the Cosmic Cube. He can make anything he thinks of happen; but unless it occurs to him to wish up some defenses, you can take him out with a club to the back of the head. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-god-tear-his-own-head-off/530197/32 "2010-02-24T03:48:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nope; it would only be indestructible if it wanted to be. But it does imply that such a creature could destroy itself, then come back. I think this is cheating. It hasn’t destroyed itself if it can come back. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-god-tear-his-own-head-off/530197/33 "2010-02-24T04:06:22Z")
Wikipedia on the [Omnipotence Paradox](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradox). ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-god-tear-his-own-head-off/530197/34 "2010-02-24T04:15:23Z")
'tis a silly question. And, of course, God wouldn’t do it in any case, since it’s a sin to commit suicide… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-god-tear-his-own-head-off/530197/35 "2010-02-24T05:04:11Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > 'tis a silly question. And, of course, God wouldn’t do it in any case, since it’s a sin to commit suicide… Only insofar as an omnipotent god says it is. Presumably if truly omnipotent he can also decide that it is no longer a sin. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-god-tear-his-own-head-off/530197/36 "2010-02-24T05:12:57Z")
Well, s/he/it/unspecified could make himself/herself/itself/whatever non-omnipotent and then do the deed…and afterward, presumably, grant forgiveness. Or something. -XT ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-god-tear-his-own-head-off/530197/37 "2010-02-24T05:18:48Z")
Can God tear his own head off? Sure, if he is a Mayan god or demigod. 🙂 > **[Maya Hero Twins](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_Hero_Twins)** > > The Maya Hero Twins are the central figures of a narrative included within the colonial Kʼicheʼ document called Popol Vuh, and constituting the oldest Maya myth to have been preserved in its entirety. Called Hunahpu \[hunaxˈpu\] and Xbalanque \[ʃɓalaŋˈke\] in the Kʼicheʼ language, the Twins have also been identified in the art of the Classic Mayas (200–900 AD). The twins are often portrayed as complementary forces. > The Twin motif recurs in many Native American mythologies; the Maya Twins, in partic... ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-god-tear-his-own-head-off/530197/38 "2010-02-24T05:37:38Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > 'tis a silly question. And, of course, God wouldn’t do it in any case, since it’s a sin to commit suicide… Well, if he can do it and survive it’s not suicide. Maybe God just does it to impress chicks with how badass he is. Then gets all grumpy and goes smite someone when the girls all leave with Thor instead. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-god-tear-his-own-head-off/530197/39 "2010-02-24T05:40:22Z")
I go with Thor regardless. Or maybe one of the Greek Gods. Those guys (and girls) knew how to REALLY party! None of this namby-pamby knocking up a virgin stuff (though they did that too)…no, they went full bore. With subtitles! -XT ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-god-tear-his-own-head-off/530197/40 "2010-02-24T06:10:38Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > As **begbert2** keeps pointing out, there is no logical contradiction in the OP. > > In less silly terms: Can the Christian God choose to terminate his own existence and what would be the consequences for the universe if he did so? > > Can the Christian God choose to permanently change any of his properties? You know, you’re right. I misread the OP, commented quickly a couple of times and just got back to the computer. My sincere apologies to both you and **begbert2**. My answer would be that it could go either way. God could either have created a universe dependent on his continued existence, or one that was independent of it. And as long as the flavor of the God you’re talking about doesn’t necessitate or assume an eternal existence, yes, he could terminate his existence. BUt if you say you’re talking about the Christian God, I think that an eternal existence is part and parcel of that particular God. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-god-tear-his-own-head-off/530197.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-god-tear-his-own-head-off/530197.md?page=3)