# Can GOP candidates wheel and deal with their delegates before the first ballot? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 14, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gop-candidates-wheel-and-deal-with-their-delegates-before-the-first-ballot/743173 "2016-01-14T22:40:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gop-candidates-wheel-and-deal-with-their-delegates-before-the-first-ballot/743173/21 "2016-01-16T08:24:29Z")
So they can also change it, if needed, to allow establishment candidates to pool their delegates. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gop-candidates-wheel-and-deal-with-their-delegates-before-the-first-ballot/743173/22 "2016-01-23T03:08:19Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > …It says that no candidate’s name shall be put into nomination unless he has a majority (NOT a plurality) in 8 states. > > Consider this scenario: Jeb! sweeps the vote in **Guam, Northern Marianas, Puerto Rico, American Samoa, Virgin Islands, Wyoming, North Dakota, and South Dakota**. No other candidate has a majority in 8 states. Jeb!'s name will be the only one placed in nomination at the convention… Three of these things are not like the others. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gop-candidates-wheel-and-deal-with-their-delegates-before-the-first-ballot/743173/23 "2016-01-23T04:50:16Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Three of these things are not like the others. Yes, I know that Guam, Northern Marianas, Puerto Rico, American Samoa, Virgin Islands are not legally states as far as the United States government is concerned. As far as the rules of the Republican Party and the Republican Convention are concerned they are: > [@](#): > > (b) For the purposes of this rule and all other rules, “state” or “states” shall be taken to include American Samoa, the > District of Columbia, Guam, Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands, except in Rule No. 14, and unless > the context in which the word “state” or “states” is used clearly makes such inclusion inappropriate. Words are used differently in different contexts. When discussing the rules of the Republican National Convention, it serves no useful purpose to make the distinction. But if you think it would enhance the conversation, please feel free to substitute “states and other entities treated by the Republican National Convention rules as if they were states” wherever you see the word “states.” ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gop-candidates-wheel-and-deal-with-their-delegates-before-the-first-ballot/743173/24 "2016-01-23T21:22:17Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > But it’s still not clear if that just means they are bound to vote for the candidate they are pledged to, or if the candidate can direct them to vote for someone else after making a deal. They can’t order a delegate to do anything - though obviously a delegate pledged to a candidate is going to listen and probably go along with any deal. I don’t know if they are all pledged in the first round and then not in subsequent votes, or whether this varies by state or is a national rule. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gop-candidates-wheel-and-deal-with-their-delegates-before-the-first-ballot/743173/25 "2016-01-23T21:24:55Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I don’t know what you mean by that. So here’s my take. > > You don’t seem to understand how rigged the game is. > > There has never been a brokered convention in the history of the primary era. The last second ballot took place in 1952. Not having a candidate set several months before the convention has been seen as certain death by the leaders of both parties for their adult lifetimes. Conventions are infomercials that are as scripted and smoothly run as a Cirque de Soliel performance. One deviation can be crippling and possibly mean death. > > Everything - everything - is set up to ensure the party’s candidate is serenaded and lauded with the maximum amount of propaganda. There won’t be a second ballot this year either, because nobody will ever let it get that far. That’s one reason the rules are written as they are: they are more insurance that nothing any rogue candidate can try will interrupt the coronation. > > Your scenario won’t happen not just because it’s the stuff of political novels. It won’t happen because the house rules won’t let it happen. Yeah, it could happen, and it looks like it might. You may be right that party leaders try hard to get a consensus early. That doesn’t mean they have the power to do so every time. This year looks different. Don’t go around telling us something can’t possibly happen, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gop-candidates-wheel-and-deal-with-their-delegates-before-the-first-ballot/743173/26 "2016-01-23T21:26:27Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > It does to me, because I don’t know what “bound to candidates” means. You are apparently sure it means they must vote for those candidates and no other, while the language sounds to me like it could be like bound/indentured servants who can be directed to vote otherwise by the candidate to whom they are bound. It is the former. The pledge to vote for a certain candidate is made to the voters, not to the candidate. The candidate cannot order any delegate to do anything. Of course, delegates are very likely to comply with requests from the candidate they support, but it’s not a rule. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gop-candidates-wheel-and-deal-with-their-delegates-before-the-first-ballot/743173/27 "2016-01-23T22:16:03Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Yeah, it could happen, and it looks like it might. No, it doesn’t. > [@](#): > > You may be right that party leaders try hard to get a consensus early. That doesn’t mean they have the power to do so every time. This year looks different. No, it doesn’t. > [@](#): > > Don’t go around telling us something can’t possibly happen, thanks. It can’t possibly happen. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gop-candidates-wheel-and-deal-with-their-delegates-before-the-first-ballot/743173/28 "2016-01-23T23:02:23Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > No, it doesn’t. It does to me. > [@](#): > > No, it doesn’t. It does to me. > [@](#): > > It can’t possibly happen. Yes it can. Are we done now? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gop-candidates-wheel-and-deal-with-their-delegates-before-the-first-ballot/743173/29 "2016-01-23T23:13:05Z")
**Lance** , let’s hope it does happen, and then we’ll meet back here and see if **Exapno** eats crow or slinks away. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gop-candidates-wheel-and-deal-with-their-delegates-before-the-first-ballot/743173/30 "2016-01-23T23:57:27Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > They can’t order a delegate to do anything - though **obviously a delegate pledged to a candidate is going to listen and probably go along with any deal**. I don’t know if they are all pledged in the first round and then not in subsequent votes, or whether this varies by state or is a national rule. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > It is the former. > > The pledge to vote for a certain candidate is made to the voters, not to the candidate. The candidate cannot order any delegate to do anything. **Of course, delegates are very likely to comply with requests from the candidate they support** , but it’s not a rule. Bolding mine. I generally agree with your point here but I wonder how true the bolded parts are. You’re spot-on that the delegates’ “pledge” is to the voters; they promise they’ll vote their first ballot the way the popular vote in their state told them to (in accordance with whatever the state-level rules are, e.g. winner take all, proportional, etc.). After that IMO the delegates owe exactly nothing to exactly everybody. The delegates are party stalwarts who’re getting the trip to the big show as a reward for loyal and fervent service. As such, each of them is likely to have a strongly held view about which candidate they individually support(ed), and which one, based on the current national state of play, they independently think would be tactically best now. IOW, they may be pledged to Cruz since he won their state, but have been a campaign-long booster for Kasich as their idea of the ideal President. Who now believes that Rubio is the least-bad alternative with the best chance to beat Hillary the Horrid. IMO if the first ballot is inconclusive, our delegate could do almost anything in the second ballot. To be sure the state leadership will try to influence them. But I don’t think the pledged candidate (Cruz in my example) has any particular pull over the delegates. Particulary for the 49 states’ (plus the several non-state “states’” mentioned above) wherein the pledged candidate doesn’t live/represent. IOW, Jeb! will have some residual pull in FL after the 2016 RNC; he won’t have spit anywhere else. His efforts to steer his pledged delegates from some other state will be ineffective. If you have solid rules-based info to contradict this opinion, I’m glad to learn of it. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2016, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gop-candidates-wheel-and-deal-with-their-delegates-before-the-first-ballot/743173/31 "2016-01-24T00:06:57Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > **Lance** , let’s hope it does happen, and then we’ll meet back here and see if **Exapno** eats crow or slinks away. I’ll eat crow. And if if doesn’t happen…? ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2016, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gop-candidates-wheel-and-deal-with-their-delegates-before-the-first-ballot/743173/32 "2016-01-24T00:32:15Z")
The 40b rule brings up an interesting related question. Given the wide open nature of this years contest there might be a decent minority of delegates that can’t vote for the person they are pledged to since their candidate isn’t on the convention ballot. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2016, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gop-candidates-wheel-and-deal-with-their-delegates-before-the-first-ballot/743173/33 "2016-01-24T00:41:19Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > After that IMO the delegates owe exactly nothing to exactly everybody. The delegates are party stalwarts who’re getting the trip to the big show as a reward for loyal and fervent service. As such, each of them is likely to have a strongly held view about which candidate they individually support(ed), and which one, based on the current national state of play, they independently think would be tactically best now. I don’t know how it works in Florida, but in Illinois each primary candidate for President submits his own slate of delegates. The voters cast two votes: One for the “beauty contest” where they pick a candidate and a second vote for the delegates who are pledged to the candidate. A voter could, theoretically, vote for Jeb! and then select the Donald’s delegates to go to the convention. There is no logical reason for a candidate to submit the names of anyone but loyal supporters in his delegate slate. [Generally, you need a local organization and campaign chairman who does the hard work of putting together the slate.](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/politics/ct-illinois-presidential-primary-met-20151002-story.html) ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2016, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gop-candidates-wheel-and-deal-with-their-delegates-before-the-first-ballot/743173/34 "2016-01-24T18:38:20Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > After that IMO the delegates owe exactly nothing to exactly everybody. The delegates are party stalwarts who’re getting the trip to the big show as a reward for loyal and fervent service. As such, each of them is likely to have a strongly held view about which candidate they individually support(ed), and which one, based on the current national state of play, they independently think would be tactically best now. > > IOW, they may be pledged to Cruz since he won their state, but have been a campaign-long booster for Kasich as their idea of the ideal President. Who now believes that Rubio is the least-bad alternative with the best chance to beat Hillary the Horrid. Yes, of course they will begin to think more strategically as time goes on, but they are delegates because they supported the candidate they are pledged to, so they start out wanting that candidate to win. On the second round of voting, they are likely to stick with him/her. As voting goes on, they may waver. The voters vote for a candidate, and then that determines whose delegates are elected. The delegates are different depending on the candidate - each has a slate, and a certain number of that slate are elected. So they are not only pledged to a candidate by virtue of the vote, they were supporters of that candidate from the beginning, and therefore are likely to remain so. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2016, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gop-candidates-wheel-and-deal-with-their-delegates-before-the-first-ballot/743173/35 "2016-01-24T21:05:58Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I’ll eat crow. > > And if if doesn’t happen…? It won’t prove anything, sorry. We are saying only that it _could_ happen, not that it necessarily will. Your position is much more sweeping, and gets utterly disproven by one counterexample. That’s just the nature of the extreme position you took, which was presumably free and voluntary, much like the vote on the second ballot. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2016, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gop-candidates-wheel-and-deal-with-their-delegates-before-the-first-ballot/743173/36 "2016-01-24T21:08:49Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > And here is an interesting twist: In 2012 Mitt Romney’s people put it an interesting little rule: [Rule 40(b)](https://s3.amazonaws.com/prod-static-ngop-pbl/docs/Rules_of_the_Republican+Party_FINAL_S14090314.pdf). They put it there because they were afraid Ron Paul would challenge President Mittens in the 2016 primary. It says that no candidate’s name shall be put into nomination unless he has a majority (NOT a plurality) in 8 states. Is this a majority of the vote cast in the primary or a majority of the state’s delegates? I ask because many of the later Republican primaries are winner take all. So I suspect the leading candidate will certainly have a majority of delegates in at least 8 states. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2016, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gop-candidates-wheel-and-deal-with-their-delegates-before-the-first-ballot/743173/37 "2016-01-24T21:16:27Z")
Good point and I think it probably is the delegates. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2016, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gop-candidates-wheel-and-deal-with-their-delegates-before-the-first-ballot/743173/38 "2016-01-24T22:17:03Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > It won’t prove anything, sorry. We are saying only that it _could_ happen, not that it necessarily will. Your position is much more sweeping, and gets utterly disproven by one counterexample. That’s just the nature of the extreme position you took, which was presumably free and voluntary, much like the vote on the second ballot. 😉 Extremely courageous of you. And a position I predicted. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gop-candidates-wheel-and-deal-with-their-delegates-before-the-first-ballot/743173/39 "2016-01-25T01:57:46Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I’ll eat crow. > > And if if doesn’t happen…? What do you mean “if”? You’re absolutely certain it won’t happen. You said so. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gop-candidates-wheel-and-deal-with-their-delegates-before-the-first-ballot/743173/40 "2016-01-25T01:59:24Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Extremely courageous of you. And a position I predicted. What is wrong with you? Nobody said it was going to happen, just that the chances are greater than zero. You decided to come in here and declare that it can’t possibly happen and nobody can have an opinion to the contrary because you say so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gop-candidates-wheel-and-deal-with-their-delegates-before-the-first-ballot/743173.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-gop-candidates-wheel-and-deal-with-their-delegates-before-the-first-ballot/743173.md?page=3)