# Can government social programs be replaced with a charitable mandate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 28, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-government-social-programs-be-replaced-with-a-charitable-mandate/656949 "2013-04-28T21:02:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Joshuagenes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Joshuagenes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joshuagenes)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-government-social-programs-be-replaced-with-a-charitable-mandate/656949/41 "2013-04-29T00:51:28Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :rolleyes: No, it won’t. Private charities had centuries to do a good job, and they failed miserably. Government funded social welfare has done an enormously better job. > > It’s not more efficient. > > No, and no. In the dog-eat-dog, let-the-poor-and-sick-die society you want to create like everyone else I’d be looking out for me and mine, _because no one else will._ > No, it have virtually none at all. And it has zero “accountability” for the damage done to society by such an unfair system. > > You keep saying the government is less efficient like it’s a given, instead of being a right wing propaganda line. > > :rolleyes: Even if that was true, so what? > Which is an argument against your proposal, since you are admitting that in reality even for you it’ll be all about “give to my own, and to hell with everyone else”. > > And when the starving, desperate people your system creates kill you or I and rob our corpses so they have food to eat, that’s just the price we have to pay for economic ideological purity, yes? Dude, make shorter posts, Site evidence to back up your claims, I have backed up my claims with links to studies and with basic logic. Where is yours? ---
**Author:** ![Joshuagenes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Joshuagenes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joshuagenes)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-government-social-programs-be-replaced-with-a-charitable-mandate/656949/42 "2013-04-29T00:59:20Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > You don’t believe that people are altruistic and will value society’s good over their own either. If you really believed that, there’d be no need for a mandate. People would simply give of their own free will. There is an old Russian saying that says “Trust, but check” this is my take on the matter. It is important to have a mandate for the purpose of reforming and replacing the current system. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-government-social-programs-be-replaced-with-a-charitable-mandate/656949/43 "2013-04-29T01:01:12Z")
> [@Joshuagenes](#): > > I have faith in people like you to draw attention to potential problems, start charities, and take care of the matter quicker and more efficiently than the government could every do. > [@Joshuagenes](#): > > Perhaps you can change people minds. > [@Joshuagenes](#): > > I do believe there is always a need to educate people concerning charity and for this I leave in your capable hands. > [@Joshuagenes](#): > > Most certainly people do give to pet causes but if you make the assumption that people are stupid and won’t prioritize correctly with their giving it remains your responsibility to educate them otherwise. For someone who’s standing so strongly on the principle of self-determination, the OP is certainly relying a lot on “you” to make sure his proposal works. > [@Joshuagenes](#): > > As to your assumption concerning how people give privately please provide documented evidence to make your case. As the person who originally proposed this highly flawed idea, the burden of proof is on YOU to “provide documented evidence to make your case.” So far, I have not even seen a token effort to address the questions other posters have put to you. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-government-social-programs-be-replaced-with-a-charitable-mandate/656949/44 "2013-04-29T01:37:21Z")
> [@Joshuagenes](#): > > It seems reasonable to me that government social programs can be replaced by a charitable mandate. > > Here is how it would work. A law would be passed that would require people to give 10% of their income either directly to the poor or to a private institution, or to a govenment social program open to recieving donations. Those that fail to pay will be stripped of their assets and made dependent upon the system which they have cheated. You would record where you gave and reciever would record from whence they got. The charity recieved would count toward fuflfillment of the governments promised obligation. Oversite would be provided by the IRS. > > What this mandate does is cut out the slow,inefficient, and ineffective middle man(the govenment) and exchanges it for highly accountible, efficient, and effective givers and charities. > > I would appreciate your thoughts on the matter. Thanks --Joshua Sounds a lot like the Islamic practice of [Zakat.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakat) ---
**Author:** ![Joshuagenes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Joshuagenes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joshuagenes)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-government-social-programs-be-replaced-with-a-charitable-mandate/656949/45 "2013-04-29T01:45:57Z")
> [@waterj2](#): > > This pretty much destroys the “security” part of Social Security. Right now, Social Security guarantees a certain level of benefits for everyone who’s paid into the system. The elderly don’t have to rely on the whims of their relatives or charities. They have benefits coming to them. We can all plan in advance knowing that Social Security will be there for our retirement. Hence the whole “security” thing. > > The NBER has [a study showing that expanding Social Security benefits](http://www.nber.org/bah/summer04/w10466.html) over the period 1960–1995 lowered the poverty rate among the elderly from 35% to under 10%. Your system would go in the other direction. > > Meanwhile, the [administrative expenses](http://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/admin.html) of the Social Security program in 2012 were 0.5% of the retirement program and 2.1% of the disability program, or 0.8% of the total. I don’t see how you’re going to let people pay their taxes to their elderly relatives and provide enough oversight to keep the system from being overrun with fraud for anywhere near that cheap. This is a good post as it has both logic and sites evidence. Here is a link to the rising poverty rates since 1960 which includes your data. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US\_poverty\_rate\_by\_age.\_Timeline.gif](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_poverty_rate_by_age._Timeline.gif) but also shown is rising poverty rates overall. People fraud social security today. To say that there will be more fraud or less fraud is hard to say. I have provided a stipulation that people do give and failing to do so can get you stripped of your assets. As to the security of social security disability administration. It remains to be seen if it is false security. Governments fail too although not as often, they fail bigger. It is more damaging to drink hard on the weekend than to spread your drinking out thoughout the week. So it is with failures. As the social security administration is part of the government congress has been borrowing it’s funds for other purposes. This would be less likely to happen if they were private. It is not good to have choke points and single points of failure in charity for the same reasons we build redundancy into computer systems via raid configurations. To say social security is efficient in the shortrun may be true but most certainly not in the long run. I recommend reading “Antifragile by Nassim Taleb” to deepen your understanding of long term efficiency. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-government-social-programs-be-replaced-with-a-charitable-mandate/656949/46 "2013-04-29T01:52:41Z")
> [@Joshuagenes](#): > > Of course I am biased who isn’t. Here is a link to a comparison study. [http://mises.org/journals/jls/21\_2/21\_2\_1.pdf](http://mises.org/journals/jls/21_2/21_2_1.pdf) You’re providing a cite from the Ludwig von Mises Institute? They’re about as credible as the Institute for Policy Studies. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-government-social-programs-be-replaced-with-a-charitable-mandate/656949/47 "2013-04-29T02:15:52Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > For someone who’s standing so strongly on the principle of self-determination, the OP is certainly relying a lot on “you” to make sure his proposal works. This reminds me of a clever argument made by Matt Bruenig, “[Instead, how about you rely on charity to achieve your distributive goals?](http://mattbruenig.com/2012/11/28/instead-how-about-you-rely-on-charity-to-achieve-your-distributive-goals/)”: > [@](#): > > Suppose two people are arguing about what the proper social distribution should be. Person 1 thinks it should be X and person 2 thinks it should be Y. Person 1 then turns to person 2 and says, why don’t we just build our institutions to generate distribution X and then you can try your best through charity to get closer to distribution Y. That is, in effect, how the charity argument goes. But if you are clever, you see that person 2 can turn around and say the same thing: no, why don’t we organize our distributive institutions to achieve Y and then _you_ can try through charity to get closer to your preferred distribution, X. One of the goals of government social programs is to create a wealth distribution that people prefer to what would exist without those programs. A system of charity, where the bulk of the money that would go towards those social programs is controlled by the whims of the wealthy would lead to a wealth distribution less palatable to most people than the current system where democratic institutions make those decisions (however bad they are at actually giving a shit about the concerns of the non-wealthy). ---
**Author:** ![Joshuagenes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Joshuagenes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joshuagenes)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-government-social-programs-be-replaced-with-a-charitable-mandate/656949/48 "2013-04-29T02:26:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Sounds a lot like the Islamic practice of [Zakat.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakat) Or mandated tithing for Jews and some Christian groups. It is similar. ---
**Author:** ![Joshuagenes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Joshuagenes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joshuagenes)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-government-social-programs-be-replaced-with-a-charitable-mandate/656949/49 "2013-04-29T02:29:15Z")
> [@waterj2](#): > > This reminds me of a clever argument made by Matt Bruenig, “[Instead, how about you rely on charity to achieve your distributive goals?](http://mattbruenig.com/2012/11/28/instead-how-about-you-rely-on-charity-to-achieve-your-distributive-goals/)”: > One of the goals of government social programs is to create a wealth distribution that people prefer to what would exist without those programs. A system of charity, where the bulk of the money that would go towards those social programs is controlled by the whims of the wealthy would lead to a wealth distribution less palatable to most people than the current system where democratic institutions make those decisions (however bad they are at actually giving a shit about the concerns of the non-wealthy). And the wealthy don’t have major influence over how the government gives? ---
**Author:** ![Joshuagenes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Joshuagenes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joshuagenes)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-government-social-programs-be-replaced-with-a-charitable-mandate/656949/50 "2013-04-29T02:35:07Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You’re providing a cite from the Ludwig von Mises Institute? They’re about as credible as the Institute for Policy Studies. Credibility is a subjective matter swayed by the beliefs of perceiver. Debate the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Joshuagenes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Joshuagenes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joshuagenes)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-government-social-programs-be-replaced-with-a-charitable-mandate/656949/51 "2013-04-29T03:04:02Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > For someone who’s standing so strongly on the principle of self-determination, the OP is certainly relying a lot on “you” to make sure his proposal works. > > As the person who originally proposed this highly flawed idea, the burden of proof is on YOU to “provide documented evidence to make your case.” So far, I have not even seen a token effort to address the questions other posters have put to you. The burden is on all of us to provide proof and logic. Have you followed the links I have provided" Have you sought the true concerning the evidence produced? Have you hashed out the logic? Stop being Lazy and take a little responsibility upon your shoulders. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-government-social-programs-be-replaced-with-a-charitable-mandate/656949/52 "2013-04-29T03:06:10Z")
> [@Joshuagenes](#): > > Of course I am biased who isn’t. Here is a link to a comparison study. [http://mises.org/journals/jls/21\_2/21\_2\_1.pdf](http://mises.org/journals/jls/21_2/21_2_1.pdf). Can you find the actual part of the Woodson study that shows how he reached the calculation that only 30% of tax dollars intended for welfare actually reach the intended recipients? All I can find are libertarian publications referring to that conclusion, but not any discussion of how that conclusion was reached. ---
**Author:** ![Joshuagenes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Joshuagenes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joshuagenes)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-government-social-programs-be-replaced-with-a-charitable-mandate/656949/53 "2013-04-29T03:48:48Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Can you find the actual part of the Woodson study that shows how he reached the calculation that only 30% of tax dollars intended for welfare actually reach the intended recipients? All I can find are libertarian publications referring to that conclusion, but not any discussion of how that conclusion was reached. It is in book form maybe you can find it at the library. Woodson, Robert L. 1989. Breaking the Poverty Cycle: Private Sector Alternatives to the Welfare State. I believe Michael Tanner of the Cato Institute reconfirmed the study in 1996. Here is a link to a recent policy paper by Michael Tanner.[http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/PA694.pdf](http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/PA694.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-government-social-programs-be-replaced-with-a-charitable-mandate/656949/54 "2013-04-29T03:56:23Z")
> [@Joshuagenes](#): > > It is in book form maybe you can find it at the library. > Woodson, Robert L. 1989. Breaking the Poverty Cycle: Private Sector Alternatives > to the Welfare State. > > I believe Michael Tanner of the Cato Institute reconfirmed the study in 1996. The _Cato_ Institute? Hardly people whom I’d consider trustworthy or objective. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-government-social-programs-be-replaced-with-a-charitable-mandate/656949/55 "2013-04-29T03:56:28Z")
> [@Joshuagenes](#): > > The burden is on all of us to provide proof and logic. Have you followed the links I have provided" Have you sought the true concerning the evidence produced? Have you hashed out the logic? Stop being Lazy and take a little responsibility upon your shoulders. We’re advocating a system that’s up and running in the real world. You’re proposing a system that doesn’t exist outside of people’s imagination. So the burden of proof that your system would be better is on you. ---
**Author:** ![Joshuagenes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Joshuagenes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joshuagenes)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-government-social-programs-be-replaced-with-a-charitable-mandate/656949/56 "2013-04-29T04:09:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > We’re advocating a system that’s up and running in the real world. You’re proposing a system that doesn’t exist outside of people’s imagination. So the burden of proof that your system would be better is on you. The system already exists in voluntary form. Also it has existed much longer in the form of Jewish, Christian, and Muslim tithing. It has existed since ancient times while the government dole has come and gone. For some religious people it is mandatory but the mandate is from their church and not the government. Is it such a stretch to consider doing the same thing with secular government? Why put so much faith in the government who remains a single point of failure for the system? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-government-social-programs-be-replaced-with-a-charitable-mandate/656949/57 "2013-04-29T04:17:05Z")
> [@Joshuagenes](#): > > It is in book form maybe you can find it at the library. That’s not how it works. You made a claim. You back it up with evidence. It’s your responsibility to find the book you cite and post the relevant section. We are under no burden to do it for you. > [@](#): > > I believe Michael Tanner of the Cato Institute reconfirmed the study in 1996. You believe? You _believe_? No. You post a cite or you retract the claim. ---
**Author:** ![Joshuagenes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Joshuagenes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joshuagenes)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-government-social-programs-be-replaced-with-a-charitable-mandate/656949/58 "2013-04-29T04:19:48Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The _Cato_ Institute? Hardly people whom I’d consider trustworthy or objective. These people have strong infuence on the government you do trust. Do you still Trust the government? Do you trust the government when it is fill with elected people that you don’t agree with? At least the Charitable mandate allows you to put your money towards causes and people you do trust. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-government-social-programs-be-replaced-with-a-charitable-mandate/656949/59 "2013-04-29T04:22:47Z")
> [@Joshuagenes](#): > > The system already exists in voluntary form. Also it has existed much longer in the form of Jewish, Christian, and Muslim tithing. Which just demonstrates its inadequacy. It’s been tried. It doesn’t work. > [@Joshuagenes](#): > > Why put so much faith in the government who remains a single point of failure for the system? It’s not “faith”. It’s recognition that government has done a better job of constructing social safety nets than all of the alternatives. Government is simply better at this sort of thing. More efficient, more effective, usually even fairer. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-government-social-programs-be-replaced-with-a-charitable-mandate/656949/60 "2013-04-29T04:25:57Z")
> [@Joshuagenes](#): > > These people have strong infuence on the government you do trust. Not that strong obviously, or we’d be seeing general social collapse into the neofeudal anarchy they want. > [@Joshuagenes](#): > > At least the Charitable mandate allows you to put your money towards causes and people you do trust. Garbage. It will create massive inequality, poverty and social instability - that’s what it always has done in the past. I’ll be keeping all my money for myself in that scenario; I’ll need it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-government-social-programs-be-replaced-with-a-charitable-mandate/656949.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-government-social-programs-be-replaced-with-a-charitable-mandate/656949.md?page=4)