# Can he U.S. Post office fire a mail person. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 21, 2019, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-he-u-s-post-office-fire-a-mail-person/835847 "2019-06-21T14:38:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Steven\_Estes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Steven\_Estes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steven_Estes)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-he-u-s-post-office-fire-a-mail-person/835847/1 "2019-06-21T14:38:28Z")
Can he U.S. Post office fire a mail person. I except here, of course, a situation in which a mail worker has stolen money or otherwise committed an illegal act.’ I also except a situation, far from anything encountered, on which the Post Office, and perhaps the entire economy, is threatened with bankruptcy. Under these conditions, can a mail worker be fired? ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-he-u-s-post-office-fire-a-mail-person/835847/2 "2019-06-21T14:46:56Z")
Why wouldn’t they be able to fire them for what appears to be gross misconduct? Isn’t that a pretty standard form of grounds for dismissal? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-he-u-s-post-office-fire-a-mail-person/835847/3 "2019-06-21T14:48:01Z")
What makes you think they can’t be fired? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-he-u-s-post-office-fire-a-mail-person/835847/4 "2019-06-21T14:53:06Z")
They can be fired for cause (which I’m sure isn’t limited to stealing mail, etc) , but layoffs are restricted for long time employees by this provision of the contract I found online: > [@](#): > > ARTICLE 6 > NO LAYOFFS OR REDUCTION IN FORCE > (1) Each employee who is employed in the regular work force as of the date of the Award of Arbitrator James J. Healy, September 15, 1978, shall be protected henceforth against any involuntary layoff or force reduction. > It is the intent of this provision to provide security to each such employee during his or her work lifetime. > Members of the regular work force, as defined in Article 7 of the Agreement, include full-time regulars, part-time employees assigned to regular schedules and part-time employees assigned to flexible schedules. > (2) Employees who become members of the regular work force after the date of this Award, September 15, 1978, shall be provided the same protection afforded under (1) above on completion of six years of continuous service and having worked in at least 20 pay periods during each of the six years. > (3) With respect to employees hired into the regular work force after the date of this Award and who have not acquired the protection provided under (2) above, the Employer shall have the right to effect layoffs for lack of work or for other legitimate reasons. This right may be exercised in lieu of reassigning employees under the provisions of Article 12, except as such right may be modified by agreement. Should the exercise of the Employer’s right to lay off employees require the application of the provisions of Chapter 35 of Title 5, United States Code, employees covered by that Chapter with less than three years of continuous civilian federal service will be treated as “career conditional” employees. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-he-u-s-post-office-fire-a-mail-person/835847/5 "2019-06-21T14:53:39Z")
When I had problems with my mail delivery, the local postmaster told me his hands were tied, as the person delivering my mail was a subcontractor. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-he-u-s-post-office-fire-a-mail-person/835847/6 "2019-06-21T15:52:19Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > When I had problems with my mail delivery, the local postmaster told me his hands were tied, as the person delivering my mail was a subcontractor. They may not be able to discipline individual subcontractor carriers but the contracting company could lose its gig if there are serious problems with overall performance of the company under contract. If anything, subcontracted help is easier to get rid of than employees. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-he-u-s-post-office-fire-a-mail-person/835847/7 "2019-06-21T16:25:07Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > They may not be able to discipline individual subcontractor carriers but the contracting company could lose its gig if there are serious problems with overall performance of the company under contract. > > If anything, subcontracted help is easier to get rid of than employees. but it is a rural area and they had no interested contracting company other than the one they had. I eventually moved and my problem was solved. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2019, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-he-u-s-post-office-fire-a-mail-person/835847/8 "2019-06-22T06:25:00Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > When I had problems with my mail delivery, the local postmaster told me his hands were tied, as the person delivering my mail was a subcontractor. I worked maintenance in a high rise building. I worked for a Engineering Service company. The property manager could not fire or terminate any of the engineers. But they could tell the service company that they want the engineer gone. If the service company did not get the offending engineer off property they would cancel the service companies contract. So the offending employee was moved to a different property. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2019, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-he-u-s-post-office-fire-a-mail-person/835847/9 "2019-06-22T09:17:02Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > They can be fired for cause (which I’m sure isn’t limited to stealing mail, etc) , but layoffs are restricted for long time employees by this provision of the contract I found online: Given it refers to people on the payroll before a specific award judgement date, it may also reflect an earlier contractual agreement, [I’m guessing here] that may have promised something more equivalent to employment for life. Extending those award conditions might have been easier and cleaner than every single affected making a breach of contract claim against the government. Longevity in the job, with related local knowledge, experience and reputational benefits may have been valued more at one time when the original conditions were set. Those recruited after the magic date only become eligible after a number of years service. The discussion of what you can and cannot compel contractors to do seems irrelevant in relation to an employee award - different categories of beasts altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Toxgoddess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Toxgoddess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxgoddess)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-he-u-s-post-office-fire-a-mail-person/835847/10 "2019-06-24T01:08:28Z")
My husband is a USPS union steward and has gone to arbitration hearings on removals several times, so yes, it’s possible. If a carrier (or other employee) is caught stealing mail they are very likely to be prosecuted also, as the Post Office takes this offense very seriously. Contractors however, as noted above, would fall under the authority of the contracting company. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-he-u-s-post-office-fire-a-mail-person/835847/11 "2019-06-24T17:32:44Z")
The important thing to distinguish here is “fired” vs. “laid off”. When someone is fired, there must be a demonstrable violation - theft, insubordination, job abandonment, etc. In many places, the list is specific. For performance issues, there may be the requirement to prove the employee had the opportunity to correct their behaviour. “You’re a minute late, you’re fired” is usually not justified, but repeated warnings and warnings of not correcting the problem could lead to dismissal for cause. “Laid off” is when there is no real reason to let the person go, but the employer does so anyways. Typically this is for financial reasons, but it could be as simple as a personality clash. In most unionized workplaces, the process of layoff is part of the contract. You can’t dismiss someone for no cause, but if financial considerations require layoffs, typically all other things being equal, the person with the least seniority goes; or they bump someone out of another job who has less seniority. (Depending on qualifications - if the job calls for, say, a certain class of driver’s license, or other certification, then the person must be qualified). The union contract will list who can bump out whom and how and when - but typically absent a valid cause, the employer cannot randomly dismiss a specific person. For non-union employees - it depends. In some US states there are mistakenly called “right to work” laws, where any employee can be dismissed at any time. In Canada, by contrast, an employer must give notice or separation pay, and that pay can be quite high depending on seniority, age, qualifications and availability of alternate employment, etc. It can range from 2 weeks up to 2 years. You really have to want to get rid of someone. When you hire a contracting firm, you cede personnel decisions to that firm. Some contracts may call for right of approval. The scenario mentioned also presumes that the person who has a problem with the contract employee is the one deciding the contract; if the contract is done at the state level, for example, what some one postmaster may say about one employee may not have much bearing on who gets the contract. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-he-u-s-post-office-fire-a-mail-person/835847/12 "2019-06-24T22:11:59Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > For non-union employees - it depends. In some US states there are mistakenly called “right to work” laws, where any employee can be dismissed at any time. " Right to work" laws in the US refer to laws that state that a person cannot be forced to contribute to the cost of union representation. “At will employment” is the concept that allows an employer to fire an employee for any reason or no reason at all - the only exceptions are that the employer cannot fire you for an illegal reason or if you have a contract ( union or otherwise) that specifies that you can only be fired under certain conditions. Every US state except Montana is an “at will” state. ---
**Author:** ![mozchron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mozchron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mozchron)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-he-u-s-post-office-fire-a-mail-person/835847/13 "2019-06-24T23:00:34Z")
I worked as a postal clerk for several years in college. Fired for general incompetence? Once past the probationary period, it will NEVER happen. The only consequence I ever saw for someone too stupid to live and being incapable of doing any actual work was being promoted to supervisor where they did less damage. As you can guess, this was awesome for moral. Steal something though, and all bets are off. The postal inspectors do not fuck around. I personally witnessed on two separate occasions people being frog-marched off the sorting floor in handcuffs for stealing mail. So that’s it. Make it through probation and don’t steal and you have a job for life. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-he-u-s-post-office-fire-a-mail-person/835847/14 "2019-06-25T17:36:58Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > " Right to work" laws in the US refer to laws that state that a person cannot be forced to contribute to the cost of union representation. “At will employment” is the concept that allows an employer to fire an employee for any reason or no reason at all - the only exceptions are that the employer cannot fire you for an illegal reason or if you have a contract ( union or otherwise) that specifies that you can only be fired under certain conditions. Every US state except Montana is an “at will” state. Then Canada is “at will” too - any employee not covered by a union contract can be let go. The only distinction is that the employer who dumps any employee overboard must pay handsomely for the privilege, several weeks’ pay at minimum; much like what happens in executive positions in the USA with golden parachutes. ---
**Author:** ![A\_Dodgy\_Dude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a87d85/32.png) [@A\_Dodgy\_Dude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Dodgy_Dude)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2019, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-he-u-s-post-office-fire-a-mail-person/835847/15 "2019-06-26T04:38:57Z")
How much of a screw-up do you have to be to get yourself fired from the post office?