# Can Hollywood execute a subtle parable that doesn't beat you over the head with its obviousness? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 6, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-hollywood-execute-a-subtle-parable-that-doesnt-beat-you-over-the-head-with-its-obviousness/509106 "2009-09-06T22:48:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-hollywood-execute-a-subtle-parable-that-doesnt-beat-you-over-the-head-with-its-obviousness/509106/21 "2009-09-07T04:09:15Z")
\*\*RealityChuck \*\* said: > [@](#): > > And, back to the OP, no parable is ever subtle. You don’t use parables unless you want to say something and make damn sure everyone knows what you mean. That’s what I came to post. I didn’t know parables were supposed to be subtle? I thought the point of a parable was to make a point obvious. **RealityChuck** said: > [@](#): > > > [@carlotta](#): > > > > Here are a few that I thought might qualify > > > > Unforgiven > > The Player > > Six Degrees of Separation > > Pulp Fiction > > Election > > Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind > > None of those are subtle in the slightest. They had a point, they made it, and the made it blindingly clear. Perhaps **carlotta** can explain what was subtle about them, because that’s not a word I would use to describe those movies (at least the ones I’ve seen). When a director has a point to make, he sets out to make it, and make sure the audience is aware there was a point. I think the salient question for the OP is if a movie can be enjoyable and have a message. Unless the OP can give an example (even an old movie) that had a point that was subtle? ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-hollywood-execute-a-subtle-parable-that-doesnt-beat-you-over-the-head-with-its-obviousness/509106/22 "2009-09-07T04:11:19Z")
**lissener** , I’m not about to watch a shitty movie 4 times so it can finally make sense to me. So please explain where the subtle was. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-hollywood-execute-a-subtle-parable-that-doesnt-beat-you-over-the-head-with-its-obviousness/509106/23 "2009-09-07T04:25:19Z")
_Pulp Fiction_, to me, was about forgiveness and redemption. ETA: No, I’m not kidding. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-hollywood-execute-a-subtle-parable-that-doesnt-beat-you-over-the-head-with-its-obviousness/509106/24 "2009-09-07T04:41:30Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > It wasn’t supposed to be subtle. It was _making a point_. You weren’t supposed to say “gee, what a subtle comment on society”; you were supposed to say “racism is our society is a much more complex issue that most people think.” Funny, it made me say “Man, this movie sure did address a complex issue in the most simpleminded manner possible outside of a sitcom”. To the OP, I agree with others that parables aren’t meant to b e subtle. Even the messages on _The Wire_, which is better written and more complex than 99% of the movies being made today, are pretty obvious. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-hollywood-execute-a-subtle-parable-that-doesnt-beat-you-over-the-head-with-its-obviousness/509106/25 "2009-09-07T04:59:25Z")
To me it seemed to be a treatise on moral relativism: almost every single conversation, almost every single exchange, almost every single situation was about one thing meaning different things to different people: a cheeseburger, a baggie of heroin, a watch, a dodged bullet–is it a motorcycle or a “chopper”?–etc. Every individual person lives in their own moral universe, and where they clash, violence happens, even over something as simple as a foot massage. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-hollywood-execute-a-subtle-parable-that-doesnt-beat-you-over-the-head-with-its-obviousness/509106/26 "2009-09-07T05:17:54Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Funny, it made me say “Man, this movie sure did address a complex issue in the most simpleminded manner possible outside of a sitcom”. I felt the same way–if that’s making a point, then Lifetime is chock full of movies that make a point. And aren’t a lot of the making a point movies that **RealityChuck** referenced (Gentlemen’s Agreement, Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner) considered a little over the top and hokey by today’s standards? > [@](#): > > To the OP, I agree with others that parables aren’t meant to b e subtle. Even the messages on _The Wire_, which is better written and more complex than 99% of the movies being made today, are pretty obvious. Well, I feel like there are shows/movies that can make a point in a more subtle way. I feel like the Sopranos often did that in a less than obvious way. I think a lot of people really missed the point about the rape plot, for example. And Pulp Fiction was cited as a film that’s about redemption. I think you could see it as making that point, or you could just view it as a pointless film. It doesn’t beat you over the head with what to think, which makes it a lot more interesting than a film that says “Racism is BAD” or “Racism is COMPLEX” or whatever. It’s not just one message–it gives you a lot to digest. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-hollywood-execute-a-subtle-parable-that-doesnt-beat-you-over-the-head-with-its-obviousness/509106/27 "2009-09-07T05:49:03Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > To the OP, I agree with others that parables aren’t meant to b e subtle. Even the messages on _The Wire_, which is better written and more complex than 99% of the movies being made today, are pretty obvious. Well, this thread is like a chicken without a head because motivations for valuing a movie vary so much. And when a movie is actually shot so many limitations of practical circumstances and so many touchy personalities mean that a single vision rarely comes through unaltered or undistorted. Subtlety is often the other side of the coin which bears lack of direction. And if you use the Oscars list from which to draw examples…well, what do you expect? ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-hollywood-execute-a-subtle-parable-that-doesnt-beat-you-over-the-head-with-its-obviousness/509106/28 "2009-09-07T06:04:53Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > But that’s kind of the point, and why it answers the OP: Tarantino’s “text” is always over the top, but his subtext–when there is any (Pulp Fiction being probably the best example)–is very subtle. I think _Reservoir Dogs_ is also a parable, and if anything it’s more subtle than _Pulp Fiction_. It’s easy to get caught up in the violence and stylized dialogue and miss the point, but there always is one. Not sure where all the Tarantino backlash comes from. He’s one of my favorites. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-hollywood-execute-a-subtle-parable-that-doesnt-beat-you-over-the-head-with-its-obviousness/509106.md?page=1)