# Can I (American) move to one of those big empty cities in china and just live there? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 26, 2015, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-american-move-to-one-of-those-big-empty-cities-in-china-and-just-live-there/713652 "2015-02-26T08:52:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-american-move-to-one-of-those-big-empty-cities-in-china-and-just-live-there/713652/1 "2015-02-26T08:52:18Z")
start a farm, grow some crops and chickens and all that? I realize there are probably some legal reasons but what would the Chinese government do? anything? would they even know you were there? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-american-move-to-one-of-those-big-empty-cities-in-china-and-just-live-there/713652/2 "2015-02-26T09:16:31Z")
First, to take the question seriously… You need a visa to gain entry to China. There are working visas, but they are fixed term and usually require a sponsoring company (you’d probably need that anyway as I’m assuming you don’t speak chinese so would not understand the paperwork). Once you’re here, you could apply to start a business, and compared to other countries the capital requirements are not very high. You would still have to produce a business plan and show how you could turn a profit in a ghost town however. Finally, note that permanent residency is almost impossible to obtain. Even if you married a chinese national, had a child with them, and ran a successful business you usually wouldn’t get permanent residency. For most people, it’s not really a problem, as their visas are trivially renewed every year. But it’s worth bearing in mind that you would have no permanent right to stay here. And now, to answer your point about whether the government would stop you: If you just choose to ignore the visa rules, or lie or whatever, yeah you’ll be arrested and deported same as everywhere else. If you just hide out in the middle of nowhere, sure they may not find you. But you could say the same thing (indeed to a greater degree) about the US. There doesn’t seem to be a great number of people willing and able to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-american-move-to-one-of-those-big-empty-cities-in-china-and-just-live-there/713652/3 "2015-02-26T09:17:46Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > start a farm, grow some crops and chickens and all that? > > I realize there are probably some legal reasons but what would the Chinese government do? anything? would they even know you were there? I imagine the Chinese have laws against squatters, no? You’d probably be arrested and either imprisoned or, more likely, deported (less hassle). What might be more interesting would be if you tried to do it the legal way: Buy one of the empty buildings - or, hell, an entire city block - and move in. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-american-move-to-one-of-those-big-empty-cities-in-china-and-just-live-there/713652/4 "2015-02-26T10:50:37Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > I imagine the Chinese have laws against squatters, no? I wouldn’t assume that; it’s legal in much of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-american-move-to-one-of-those-big-empty-cities-in-china-and-just-live-there/713652/5 "2015-02-26T12:37:04Z")
Foreigners who want to live in China for up to a year have surprisingly little say on where they’ll be living. If you want a job here, living arrangements will typically be made by your employer. If you don’t have an employer, you probably won’t get a visa for more than two weeks’ duration. That alone will keep you from realizing your dream of squatting in one of those big empty cities near Guangjou. And speaking of “squatting,” good luck on getting water or other utilities in your shiny new ghost town! Or transportation. You know, to a grocery store or restaurant. Hunting, while hardly unknown in China, is better done in undeveloped areas. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-american-move-to-one-of-those-big-empty-cities-in-china-and-just-live-there/713652/6 "2015-02-26T12:45:26Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > But you could say the same thing (indeed to a greater degree) about the US. There doesn’t seem to be a great number of people willing and able to do that. Aren’t there tens of millions of people doing exactly that in the US? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-american-move-to-one-of-those-big-empty-cities-in-china-and-just-live-there/713652/7 "2015-02-26T13:54:37Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Aren’t there tens of millions of people doing exactly that in the US? No by “hide out in the middle of nowhere” I didn’t just mean go live in the country. I mean being separated from virtually all humans so you don’t give yourself up. While a few “survivalists” may choose to do that, I’m not aware of a significant number of illegal immigrants trying to live that way. After all; why would you? Why would you break into america to benefit in no way at all from being in america? ---
**Author:** ![Inna\_Minnit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Inna\_Minnit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inna_Minnit)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-american-move-to-one-of-those-big-empty-cities-in-china-and-just-live-there/713652/8 "2015-02-26T14:27:36Z")
There are big empty cities in the most largest populated nation on earth? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-american-move-to-one-of-those-big-empty-cities-in-china-and-just-live-there/713652/9 "2015-02-26T14:27:36Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > Foreigners who want to live in China for up to a year have surprisingly little say on where they’ll be living. This is somewhat true of Chinese citizens in general, isn’t it? Would a Chinese national need an internal residency permit of some sort to move to a new city? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-american-move-to-one-of-those-big-empty-cities-in-china-and-just-live-there/713652/10 "2015-02-26T15:06:04Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > I wouldn’t assume that; it’s legal in much of the world. Any place in particular you can think of? > [@Inna\_Minnit](#): > > There are big empty cities in the most largest populated nation on earth? Not whole cities, but what amount to [whole suburbs](http://content.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1975397,00.html). ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-american-move-to-one-of-those-big-empty-cities-in-china-and-just-live-there/713652/11 "2015-02-26T15:14:22Z")
I’m not seeing open land where the OP could, as he suggested, “start a farm.” ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-american-move-to-one-of-those-big-empty-cities-in-china-and-just-live-there/713652/12 "2015-02-26T15:21:09Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > but what would the Chinese government do? anything? would they even know you were there? Their spying on the NSA who spy on you would prolly tip them off. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-american-move-to-one-of-those-big-empty-cities-in-china-and-just-live-there/713652/13 "2015-02-26T15:25:33Z")
> [@Inna\_Minnit](#): > > There are big empty cities in the most largest populated nation on earth? “Empty” is a slight exaggeration. Pudong, the Eastern part of Shanghai, had a construction boom in the 90s but it took about a decade for significant numbers of people to move there. China’s economic fortunes improved and now this former mud flat shantytown is a marvel of skyscrapers and shopping malls, filled to what sure looks like capacity. [Kangbashi and Ordos](http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-ghost-cities-in-2014-2014-6) are two more examples. Most of China’s enormous population lives near the coastal areas. These two “cities” are pretty far inland, in Inner Mongolia, right on the edge of the desert. Low rents for home and office space are attracting a few intrepid pioneers, but the many empty buildings are a bit of an embarrassment. The “If you build it, they will come” dream may yet come true, but the construction booms (which continue unabated) seem a bit premature. There was talk a few years ago of turning the areas around Guangzhou and Hong Kong into an enormous “mega-city.” Some would say it effectively already is. When I last lived in the Washington DC area, a sizable swath of office and apartment buildings had gone up near the Silver Spring Metro station and sat empty for the better part of a decade. A huge outlet mall was supposed to go up nearby, but the actual mall was a bit of a disappointment. Last time I looked, the buildings were filling up, but not at the prices the developers had originally hoped for. This same scenario is playing out on a larger scale in China. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-american-move-to-one-of-those-big-empty-cities-in-china-and-just-live-there/713652/14 "2015-02-26T15:30:49Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > This is somewhat true of Chinese citizens in general, isn’t it? Would a Chinese national need an internal residency permit of some sort to move to a new city? Well, given that they’re trying to attract settlers away from the coastal areas, I think those permits just might be attainable. ---
**Author:** ![donkeyoatey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47c2d/32.png) [@donkeyoatey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/donkeyoatey)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-american-move-to-one-of-those-big-empty-cities-in-china-and-just-live-there/713652/15 "2015-02-26T15:51:24Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I’m not seeing open land where the OP could, as he suggested, “start a farm.” Not a city(or open land), but [this abandoned amusement park](http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19049254) has options. > [@](#): > > Wonderland Amusement Park, Nankou Town, Changping > > The Disneyesque castle and medieval ramparts of this theme park north of Beijing, conceived nearly 20 years ago, lie abandoned. Local farmers grow crops among the empty buildings. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-american-move-to-one-of-those-big-empty-cities-in-china-and-just-live-there/713652/16 "2015-02-26T15:54:58Z")
This is what master planning gets you. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-american-move-to-one-of-those-big-empty-cities-in-china-and-just-live-there/713652/17 "2015-02-26T16:07:13Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Any place in particular you can think of? It’s been famously legal in England for hundreds of years, and historical attempts to curb it have led to some pretty big uprisings. Despite this, the Conservative government recently passed legislation prohibiting squatting in residential buildings; it remains legal (and common) to squat in commercial property. There are also many large and famous squatting communities in continental Europe, some of which have existed unmolested for decades. If they’re _de jure_ illegal there, then we can at least say that the laws aren’t being enforced. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-american-move-to-one-of-those-big-empty-cities-in-china-and-just-live-there/713652/18 "2015-02-26T16:10:57Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > start a farm, grow some crops and chickens and all that? > > I realize there are probably some legal reasons but what would the Chinese government do? anything? would they even know you were there? It’s an interesting question. Are there any countries where you can do this, or where visas are mostly pro forma if you more or less have your act together (e.g. business plan, capital)? It used to be that countries such as the US and Canada were desperate for more immigrants, especially ones who were white and/or wanted to farm. In some cases, there was even free or heavily subsidized land! Sick of 1870’s Berlin and want to try growing potatoes in Iowa, or raising cattle in Texas? Sure! You’d get waved right through immigration after a cursory check. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-american-move-to-one-of-those-big-empty-cities-in-china-and-just-live-there/713652/19 "2015-02-26T16:26:06Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I’m not seeing open land where the OP could, as he suggested, “start a farm.” Or, you could just go to [Detroit…](http://zfein.com/photography/detroit/) ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-american-move-to-one-of-those-big-empty-cities-in-china-and-just-live-there/713652/20 "2015-02-26T16:59:52Z")
There are a few questions here. Let’s start with one: 1. Can you live “off the grid” in China? Not easily. Even with Chinese nationals, China is strict about who lives where. Foreigners need visas, and work visas are attached to specific jobs and locations. When I lived there, I had to register with a number of offices, including regular registration with the local police. Technically, you are even supposed to report any overnight stays at a Chinese citizen’s home (and there are signs posted on apartment buildings explaining this)-- this wouldn’t be checked for a single night, but would eventually be noticed. Hotels have to be certified to host foreigners, and hotel registration forms are routinely reviewed to track movements (I’ve know people get caught taking illicit trips in to Tibet this way.) With that in mind, I did know at least one illegal immigrant in my town- a Nigerian without a passport who was on the run and hiding out in our small town. I have no idea how he does it, but I’m guessing it involves paying a lot of small bribes. It definitely wasn’t a secure situation- he could be deported at any time, and I knew a few people who had been deported. Internally, Chinese citizens can become “illegal immigrants” by moving without the proper permits. Like the US, this is somewhat accepted for the sake of free labor. But these citizens and their children essentially don’t have access to public services, including schooling and healthcare, putting them in a precarious situation. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-american-move-to-one-of-those-big-empty-cities-in-china-and-just-live-there/713652.md?page=2)