Can I argue against the binding of _any_ U.S. law to me on this condition...?

As for the hand-count/3 hour thing; people seem rather shocked that hand counts work pretty damn well… Canada had all it’s votes counted in 3 hours. they even have a law that if someone touches the ballot box; that the ballot box is discarded from the pool. This only happened once in the last election cycle over there, and was quite a humorous story at that.

Voting machine error cut-off at the state level is typically 12-16%, to pass the logic and accuracy test, the reports on voting machine error in and of themselves would take your breath away.

The re-verification procedure would minimize human error made on the first ‘trial’ declaration of the election + weed out stuffed ballots; as a physically registered human being would have to be present; on the precinct list and have their reciept in order for their vote to not be dropped when the precinct tallies hit the national pool for the final tally. The reverification process also ensures that your votes do get inputed accurately; and affact the final numbers in real-time right before your eyes. Like was said earlier; closed circut television can also be used for the super paranoid to check the voting process blow by blow to find any discrepancies and/or corruptions made by the counters.

-Justhink

Unlike many here, I think JusThink has some very valid points (not the bit about invalidating laws for the past 50 years or whatever. Unfortunately).

He is correct; it is a terrible, terrible thing that not only is our vote secret (which is good), but the method whereby the votes are counted is secret (which is extraordinarily bad).

However, I think we can take the recent Florida election as an indication that there is NOT a massive conspiracy. The idea that that fiasco was somehow “engineered” in order to pass some voting “reformation” law that would increase the hidden plutocratic grip is just silly; presumably the majority of Federal level elected officials would have to be in on the fraud, and we all know that they can pass any silly stupid laws they want, like how big your toilet tank can be. So there is no good reason to “engineer” such an event; we can take it as good evidence that the election was not widely “rigged” (at least prior to the event). Furthermore, the entire state of Florida was eventually recounted by hand, multiple times (by different news outlets), and all agreed to within their statistical margins of error with the machine counts and their MoEs.

HOWEVER, the possibility is still there. Such a shoddy, easily tamperable system would never be tolerated in say the financial realm for keeping track of stock trades (although they have their own insanities; don’t get me started on the NYSE!). We definately need an overhauled voting system, and a national voting holiday and some basic voter education throughout the school years could only be a good thing. Yet somehow, the incumbants keep sweeping those kinds of things under the carpet . . .

Our current system is not secret in terms of voter identity to the ballot, as many can attest. The Oregon ballot that I mentioned in a post just a couple back used for the 2000 election is a prime example. The ballot was tossed and all of your votes were discarded is you did not answer all 52 questions. We did not have the option to vote at the local school or public library in person. Our local news just made a few innocuous cracks about it, except for the serious tone it took when explaining that $100 fine and imprisonment for not filling out all 52 questions (not to mention that your votes don’t get counted). It was not funny.

When you have the CIA director making public statements that they ‘own’ all news figures of significance; it raises serious questions. The CSI (a branch of the CIA - Center for the Study of Intelligence) is very matter of fact about the fact that they have a public and private sector of operatives. They are very matter of fact that these operatives are university professors and news media employees; you can even veiw a public list on their site.
People don’t seem to realize how many bored people just up and decide to join the CIA; if admitted they can certainly achieve rank of your favorite new ‘reporter’ on FOX news or whatever (extensive psychological profiling and training determines whether you can have access to greater levels of security). To suggest that they don’t don’t this with your local state representatives or even congressmen is a bit naive IMO. The ‘excitement’ draws quite a number of applicants, more than would be suspected innitially. We’re not talking about your average Joe here (although diversity is certainly part of the intelligence community’s desire)… these are the equivilent to those who pass level 6 clearance above the ‘top’ clearance in areas like Lockheed Martin and Nasa etc…, the secret ones who take their double lives to their graves. I should know, I had a grandfather who worked at Lockheed with high security clearance; that is all he ever told anyone in his family; wife included! Imagine having a 50 year career that you’re not supposed to talk about… people do this stuff and they enjoy it, their personalities are geared for keeping secrets. It does not take very many people to rig an election over a modem; so your other contention is equally in question. TO make one point very clear; I have no evidence or proof that an election was rigged! I’m the kind of person who finds it hard to prove I exist, so my neurosis pretty much prevents the prior. Probability though; that is staggering… especially when something is so common sense. Why wouldn’t one build a cognitive simulation about the curruptable system? If it was wholly orchestrated; I don’t think the bill passed through congress was as primary a goal as placing in your mind the idea that our system is indeed not being massively corrupted (like you admit to believing). That would be a much more vital goal than that stupid legislation. Especially since the internet is able to share data much more freely than the news lately.

Exactly, you don’t run nuclear reactor cores off this system.

I think the point of arguement is still compelling as to how far (given a ‘reasonably’ biased ear) the issue of non-transparency could translate in a courtroom setting in this very country. It’s fascinating to me.

-Justhink

Justhink.

You STILL have not proven fraud on the part of the government. And until you do, I am perfectly happy to just assume that my vote is being counted in a proper and timely manner. Because even if it is not being counted, and there’s a huge Cuba-CIA-Jerry Falwell-Al Sharpton conspiracy to engineer elections…I still have police to enforce laws, I still have courts to hear my grievances when I have been wronged, and I still have government services (however limited) provided to me. Not too shabby, especially from a Lockian point of view.

Any system can be corrupted. In fact, what’s to guarantee you or someone like you (who devised the system in the first place) won’t corrupt it?!

Please try to respond with short sentences…

The fraud I’m referring to is not a direct computerized votescam fraud… the chances of this occurring are very slim even if the fraud is massive. I have stated that quite clearly several times. If that bothers you, than I just don’t know what to say.

The ‘fraud’ I have brought up is in regards to state definition and any law that might be binding or rely solely upon the trust that the definition is the operative definition. To say it simply:
What if you wouldn’t follow certain U.S. laws, or wouldn’t pay taxes or wouldn’t even live in the U.S. if the state suddenly was reconfigured to a form of government completely seperated from the lineage of democracy? I’m assuming that the arguement could have a legal bearing; and probably even has legal precedence in other forms. The fraud would be a more broad trust violation, and thus the penalty against the body perpetrating the fraud would be broader in scope. This would be a much more severe fraud than exposing a verifying an actual case of election rigging.

-Justhink

Maybe this is too simple. Maybe there would be good reason not to…but…Why not just give everyone a cryptic receipt for thier vote? We then have proof and transparency right? I dunno…

It’s pretty obvious Justhink simply wants to exercise his (her?) right to spout off ridiculous conspiracy theories. You can tell by the constant introduction of new information without any supporting documentation (Canadian ballot boxes will be thrown away if anyone touches them? Justhink may be confusing our ballot boxes with newborn kittens. It’s an easy mistake). I’m waiting for him to tell us how a friend of a friend knows for sure that the Men in Black, in collaboration with the Area 51 aliens, are conspiring to build a vote-rigging machine that will use mind-control beams to make you vote Republican. The only defense will be wearing a tinfoil hat and registering as an Independent.

Forget U.S. law. I’m not sure if Justhink believes the law of gravity applies to him.

And Oregon’s election laws state that a ballot is not counted for one of two reasons:

  1. the return envelope wasn’t signed
  2. the envelope for the ballot was postmarked too late

Also under Oregon law, you can vote your ballot in a secure place and then drop the ballot off at the appropriate county office.

These measures were all adopted in a 1998 referendum.

Why is it every time Justthink explains further, I get more confused? :confused:

However, surely the law of any country is binding, however that law came about - unless the law was created illegally. As far as I know (and I’m not american, and know nothing about the american law system) unless you can PROVE that an election was illegal, then you have to assume it was legal - innocent till proven guilty, right?

Therefore, the fact that the voting system is non-transparent prevents you from proving the above, so you have to assume that the system is legal…

I’m gonna go now, before my brain overheats…

Published on Tuesday, November 28, 2000 by the Associated Press
Canada Hand-Counts Votes in 4 Hours
by David Crary, Associated Press Writer

Canada shows U.S. how to count

[Copyrighted material replaced by link to article. – MEB]

Copyright 2000 Associated Press

– I’ll find the actual law that talks about discarding the box when touched… the site I remember having it is not giving port 80 access and is probably down for some odd reason. I’ll get to the Oregon Law too

-Justhink

This thread seems to have gone off in the direction of: what type of voting system is better/more efficient/least susceptible to corruption/ et al, ad nauseum.

While there are many reasons for reform of the voting system (personally, I’m in favor of shooting the first damn Talking Head to “forecast” the results 10 seconds after Maine closes their polls), no one seems to have covered one of Justhink’s questions. That is, are all the laws enacted legally binding to/on him, just because he doesn’t like the way they are counted?

Which is a load of hooey so big that words fail me.

Lessee…the ENTIRE DAMN COUNTRY (well, OK, maybe 99+%) has accepted the laws passed since the country was founded way back when. For me, that’s good enough. Talk about majority rule…:rolleyes:

I have nothing to add to the discussion at hand - the posts and proof provided by Justhink are mind-numbingly dull and I didn’t bother to read them.

However - Justhink, since you’re new here, I’ll give you one piece of very solid advice that you should have noticed in the User Agreement when you signed up: Do not post the whole of someone else’s copyrighted work on the board. Linking to it and/or providing a relevant quote or two of no longer than four lines is fine, but do not reproduce it in its entirety, even if you think people won’t read it if you just link to it. You are violating copyright law, and the Chicago Reader, owner of this board and an owner of copyrights, doesn’t like it.

You need to understand that your writing style keeps you from stating anything clearly. I don’t know the reasons why you write this way, but if you are interested in improving you can learn a lot by studying the messages on this board.

Moderator’s Note: Justhink, as Winnowill already pointed out, it’s against the rules of the board to post copyrighted material–short quotes are fine, but if you want to cite the entire article, just include a link to the original source. I’ve edited your post on page one of the thread to replace the AP article you posted with a link to the article.

A comparison of the Canadian and American voting systems is pointless, because:

[ul]
[li]There are less than one-seventh as many voters in Canada (~13 million vs ~100 million), and[/li][li]The federal, provincial and municipal elections (as well as the occasional referendum) are all treated as seperate events, unlike the Yanks who shlep to a polling station most Novembers to vote on multiple levels of government, local propositions, etc. They have fewer voting days than we do, but theirs are far more complicated.[/li][/ul]
As for the article about the Nova Scotia polling station, I cracked right up when I read about the guy who “ran off with a ballot box and threw it into a waste-treatment lagoon”. Strangely, this was not widely reported at the time. When those votes were invalidated, it wasn’t because someone had “touched” the ballot box, it was because someone had stolen it, a huge difference. Notably, the voters at that station were given a second chance to vote, and more than half did.

Go back to counting Elvis sightings, Justhink. You’re lost in a world of facts.

Thank you

That is the silliest characterization I can imagine. Everything regarding law is about like/dislike. In this particular instance, the way the votes are counted determines whether or not the government is what it claims to be ( in this instance: a form of constitutional republic). That is an axiomic arguement in regards to definition of contractual terms. If these contractual terms are violated; then it seems to me that the definition of fraud is occurring. If neither of those statements is correct, then it seems to me that the axiomic function of all words and definitions is irrelevant; in which case the laws are definately non-binding.

It is not possible to be defined as a form of democracy if the voting process can be determined as unreasonably non-transparent. The case to be made only relies on the unreasonable degree to which transparency is not used.
This unreasonableness comes down to cost, opportunity and foreknowledge; all of which the state has posessed. All of these have not only been unreasonably suppressed from the public, but have also been unreasonably been supressed from law (through dismissal of cases brought to the state to upgrade it’s obligation to upgrade a contectual obligation based on its definition in accordance with newer technology and insight which is of such necessity and ease that to not utilize it renders the contract null.

If it is argued that the state cannot be a form of democracy by definition; then it stands that my contractual commitment to ‘supposed’ democratic law in the U.S. is null/void.

Likewise, if it is argued that by the state the U.S. is not a form of democracy, but a totalitarian regime; then it will be argued that the contractual definitions of all possible terms are hollow and meaningless; at which point no possible binding contract exists in law for that totalitarian state, including its totalitarian definition.

Basically, this would render all U.S. law as null, retro-active to such time as the institution of democracy was unreasonably supressed with accordance to its definition.

It can basically be a class action lawsuit, if need be.

Accepted the laws of a constitutional republic…
In the case that it can be shown we are not a constitutional republic anymore; the laws of a constitutional republic have no contractual bearing on the population, as new state definition is not contractually represented by the state. We would be an undefined state, and all laws would be subject to an undefined axiom; therefor, unbinding to any ‘citizen’.

-Justhink

Apologies for posting a copyrighted article in full.

As for Canada law; it was not ‘touching’; but being out of veiw, that triggered the invalidity. (The very act of a vote entering a machine would activate this law, as would carting the votes off to a centralized location for counting). I do recall hearing about the re-voting, which keeps with a modern voting system IMO. Granted, the Canadian system is still not very transparent.

I can’t verify this, but I’m sure that the U.S. has at least 7 times the number of precincts that Canada has. The news vastly mischaracterized the speed and efficiency of hand counting.
Besides; the IRS doesn’t use computers to keep their records… maybe the govt. is on to something after all…

As for the added complexity…? All of those selections are on the same ballot. It’s not complicated! How does placing local and national elections on the same ballot and different ballots increase or decrease the complexity to filling out and casting a ballot?

And damnabbit, I am positive that Oregon discarded any ballot and fined you $100 or sent you to jail if you did not fill out all 52 questions. I clearly recall this warning on the local news, and an article printed in the Oregonian the day after the election. As for voting in a private area; I do think that is possible, but you have to sign up like a year in advance so that you won’t automatically be mailed a ballot (thereby, casting two ballots). None of this information was made public before the election, and I’d bet 90% of registered voters don’t realize that they can reserve a spot a year in advance so that they can cast a private ballot in some inconvenient location within the state.

-Justhink

Justhink:

What, exactly, do you think is going on? Come right out and make your accusations.

Are you saying that some party (the voting machine/computer manufacturers, local officials, senators, the president, the heads of the Democratic and Republican parties, Big Business, Microsoft, “the guvmint,” Bob, the school janitor, whose brother is running for dog catcher, all of the above) has, for the past 50 years, been taking the voters’ ballot input and altering the output to suit their own personal desires? Is that it?

Just trying to slice through your paragraphs and make some sense of things.

The evidence that votes are being altrered on a massive scale is only circumstantial. I would suggest the possibility based on circumstantial evidence, but I do not believe with a certainty that it is happening.

What I do believe about this issue:

Our voting system is so non-transparent that this could be happening.
Cases attempting to institute a more transparent mechanism have been dismissed.
Cases brought to trial to force evaluation of data that would determine how corruptable the computers are have been dismissed.
Our voting system is so non-transparent, that it is impossible to call our form of government a form of democracy; without making the term ‘democracy’ a meaningless term.
The ability to show computerized fraud with a closed source is so difficult, if not impossible, that the issue of whether evidenced fraud has actually been purpetrated becomes meaningless to the issue.
Every law passed since computerized vote counting has come along, has sought to make the American voting process less transparent. (modems, relocation of counting from the precint, illegality of recording media in counting areas, illegality to hand count at the precint, etc…)

While none of this proves that the votes are being manipulated on a vast scale; it does show that such an action requires almost zero effort to anyone interested along those lines, who hold key positions of power and influence.

All of this is a direct result of the direction of law and the unreasonable direction of vote transparency as time progresses forward.

Why should we feel guilty for questioning the intention of a few individuals on something so vital to our state definition as the voting process? Transparency removes all of this. There is zero reason to turn the tables on the public unless the official has something to hide.

The media makes a point that:

It is too expensive to make voting transparent.
It is too unreasonable to make voting transparent (they will use examples of having to count 100 million hands and such rediculousness)
The American public doesn’t care
The voting system already is as transparent as is reasonable
The voting system is already as ideal as is reasonable and/or possible for our present state.
The officials elected to count our ballots in secret are beyond reproach and are evaluated by the government, whom you should trust unless you are a communist.
Computerized vote counting is necessary to make the counts accurate.
Computerized vote counting is necessary to make the counts timely.
It is absolutely necessary that modems be attatched to computerized vote counting machines.
The votes must be counted within a few hours or else our country will be vulnerable to a world-wide hostile take-over.
The taxpayers are not interested in the paraniod ramblings of a few dissenters and communist critics, they will not foot the bill for an ‘unreasonable’ system of vote transparency.
We do not have a vote-transparency issue in the U.S.
The media is a free-speaking entity, and always divulges every detail of any topic critical to the public interest.
I make a point that this is insane.

There are too many dots that can be easily connected, that provide a very gloom picture for our current state of affairs in U.S. politics. Our vast and historically unprecidented resources for communication make this that much more unreasonable. All that is required to move to a next step, is a transparent system.
Until then, the evidence suggesting democracy holds as well as the evidence not suggesting it.

-Justhink

“Everything regarding law is about like/dislike.”

You gotta be kidding! Try telling your local cop that you don’t have to obey a law because you don’t like it!

“the way the votes are counted determines whether or not the government is what it claims to be ( in this instance: a form of constitutional republic).”

No, our republic is set in place by the enactment of laws (one of which is the way we count our votes), not the other way around. Your scenario is: “Hey, let’s count our votes in this manner, and, HEY, I guess that makes us a republic!” It doesn’t work that way. You keep trying to say that our country’s type of representation, as well as whether the laws enacted in the country, are determined by how the votes are counted. Pay attention, now…IT DOESN’T WORK THAT WAY!!! FIRST the country was founded, then the system for counting votes was included in the laws enacted for said country.

“That is an axiomic arguement in regards to definition of contractual terms. If these contractual terms are violated; then it seems to me that the definition of fraud is occurring.”

This is a type of argument that people of your ilk (I’m going to go off the deep end and typecast here) seem to love so much. You want to argue semantics over dotted i’s and crossed t’s. THERE IS NO CONTRACT HERE!!! The US Government does have responsibilities towards its citizens (and it’s another whole thread arguing whether or not it’s fulfilling said responsibilities), but it’s not a pure contract that both sides (the citizen…presumably on attaining age of majority…and the government) sat down at a table and signed. While IN GENERAL TERMS and in essence, you can consider there to be a contract between the two, THERE IS NO SUCH LEGAL CONTRACT!!!

Get a clue, sir…the United States does exist, has existed legally since its inception, is recognized as such by every nation around the world and by almost every one of its citizens (pats Justhink on his head).

So guess what?..you still have to pay your taxes, moron; and all your obfuscation will not change that.