# Can I be the only person stunned at just how badly President Joe Biden is doing? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 31, 2021, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-be-the-only-person-stunned-at-just-how-badly-president-joe-biden-is-doing/949851 "2021-08-31T19:33:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![SunUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SunUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunUp)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-be-the-only-person-stunned-at-just-how-badly-president-joe-biden-is-doing/949851/149 "2021-09-02T02:28:24Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > 8 years as Vice President doesn’t count? Keep in mind that in 2009, when Obama was mulling over his options in Afghanistan, Biden counseled him to get the U.S. out of the country by the most expeditious route possible. In the end, Obama decided on a small-scale surge strategy that kept us in country over a decade more. This is a decision that the Blob-favoring analysts and their ilk tend to ignore when they claim that Biden has been on the “wrong side of every foreign policy decision of the past 30 years” or some similar phrasing. So yeah, I’m ready to give him a pass on his eight years as veep, seeing as how if he had been in the top job, this would have happened a decade ago. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-be-the-only-person-stunned-at-just-how-badly-president-joe-biden-is-doing/949851/152 "2021-09-02T02:47:56Z")
Does your link work? Doesn’t go anywhere for me. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-be-the-only-person-stunned-at-just-how-badly-president-joe-biden-is-doing/949851/154 "2021-09-02T03:08:20Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/949981/13): > > Those are the people you’re calling Biden’s “guardians”? If not, exactly whom do you mean when you say that Biden has “guardians”? They’re supa sekrit guardians. You can’t expect the average person to know their identities. You are being unfair. ---
**Author:** ![Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mundane_super_hero/32/6304_2.png) [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mundane_Super_Hero)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-be-the-only-person-stunned-at-just-how-badly-president-joe-biden-is-doing/949851/155 "2021-09-02T03:09:41Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/949981/13): > > Again, you’re really not giving the impression of having a clear idea of what you’re talking about. So… COVID ‘brain fog’…? ( Well, I doubt he’s vaccinated, so… ) ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-be-the-only-person-stunned-at-just-how-badly-president-joe-biden-is-doing/949851/156 "2021-09-02T03:18:38Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > 8 years as Vice President doesn’t count? We artificially propped up a system that was fundamentally rotten, and corrupt, and the collapse was inevitable (yes, the corrupt Afghan generals and bureaucrats bear most of the blame). Not really, no. Even iff we’re laying the blame entirely on the POTUSs, IMHO it falls in this order. Bush Jr. \> Obama \> Trump \> Biden. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-be-the-only-person-stunned-at-just-how-badly-president-joe-biden-is-doing/949851/157 "2021-09-02T03:22:29Z")
Its a little like when Obama was Prez, and I kept hearing about how he was taking away our freedoms. And I asked ‘What freedoms? What could you do, specifically, before Obama that you cannot do now?’ Never had an answer. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-be-the-only-person-stunned-at-just-how-badly-president-joe-biden-is-doing/949851/158 "2021-09-02T03:23:46Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > What could you do, specifically, before Obama that you cannot do now?’ You could claim that no Black man could ever become president. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-be-the-only-person-stunned-at-just-how-badly-president-joe-biden-is-doing/949851/159 "2021-09-02T03:32:55Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > We got out, on time, without the massive casualties that were expected. No, it wasn’t perfect, but it rarely is. Withdrawals don’t look pretty. You can’t come out looking like the winner. > > Well I certainly didn’t have such low expectations. There has been chaos, and deaths, and as an afterthought a scramble to begin evacuating some of the translators and their families. Then, to be a bit frank, you seem to be coming from a place of ignorance. Without a stabilizing force, it was always going to go badly. There also was no last minute scramble. All of these people have been told they need to leave for months now. They chose to stay, and the President of the United States has no power to force them to leave. The plan was always to get a stabilizing force in, but that didn’t work out. And then pretty much everyone expected the Taliban takeover to take more like 60 days. It is only hindsight bias that leads to people thinking they needed to get everyone out ASAP after ceasing operations. > [@](#): > > 8 years as Vice President doesn’t count? We artificially propped up a system that was fundamentally rotten, and corrupt, and the collapse was inevitable (yes, the corrupt Afghan generals and bureaucrats bear most of the blame). Last I checked, the VP does not have any authority over the military. And VP Biden was not delegated any extra by Obama powers as far as I know. So, no, it doesn’t count. And, no, the “corrupt bureaucrats and generals” are not to blame. The US did not train the Afghan army to be able to fight this war once they pulled out. They trained them to be good US soldiers who have the benefit of our technology, firepower, and intelligence (in the spy sense. They’re not dumb). The US did not engage in any nation building, as it never does. It let the opposition fester, becoming stronger and stronger. The choice for those in charge was to be executed, along with their families, or to go along with the new government. People tend to want to stay alive and protect their families. Blaming them is not a very nuanced position. All in all, I would say you have a too rosy view of withdrawal by half, and have been getting your information more from brief news articles than in depth coverage. I continue to recommend everyone to check out Beau of the Fifth Column on YouTube, who has been covering this off and on since the deal was made. If you didn’t know that part of trying to get back in the Iran deal was to get a security force in Iraq, or that China had even tried to step in and provide that force, or have not heard people reporting on what people on the ground are saying, they I do not think you have a very nuanced picture of what went on. This was, again, much more successful than it had any right to be. Biden took the political hit, because Americans don’t like to see what it looks like when we lose. But this is not at all what it would look like if things actually went badly. We got out—a new war didn’t start. Casualties were actually quite limited, less than in other US withdrawals. As Beau said, probably the biggest hit was the messaging. They should have explained why just throwing in helicopters or defending the city were not viable options. (Helicopters make great targets, and we didn’t even have enough troops there to secure an airport. That’s what happens when you are withdrawing.) Just because Biden bit the bullet doesn’t mean he deserves the bulk of the blame. Though I guess I do bear the blame in bringing this up, thinking I could cover it generally without having to go deeper. I’m the one who says we should always be strategic in how we respond, and I should have known that this would elicit such a response. It then leads to legitimate discussion, which makes it appear like this thread serves a purpose. It’s why everyone is pushing the OP to defend their claim, rather than assuming what they were talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-be-the-only-person-stunned-at-just-how-badly-president-joe-biden-is-doing/949851/160 "2021-09-02T04:33:07Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > So, they fall back on “Sleepy Joe,” who (according to them) has dementia, can’t read a teleprompter, has trouble climbing stairs, won’t take press conference questions, and is being “handled” by “Deep State operatives,” who have an agenda that Joe Biden is carrying out because, suffering from dementia, he doesn’t know any better. Wow, that sounds an awful lot like their orange hero(in). ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-be-the-only-person-stunned-at-just-how-badly-president-joe-biden-is-doing/949851/162 "2021-09-02T04:45:25Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > last four years of maladministration Give the “unpresidented” sheer scale and tenacity of the evil in office during that term, I think _maladministration_ does not come close enought to describing it. If I may coin a term, _malevo-administration_ fits the bill. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-be-the-only-person-stunned-at-just-how-badly-president-joe-biden-is-doing/949851/163 "2021-09-02T04:46:28Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > What do these idiots think of Trump slowly shuffling up a mere ramp while holding onto the arm of a SS agent? It was the agent that was having trouble. Mr. Trump was helping him. (Yes, seriously, that’s what they said.) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-be-the-only-person-stunned-at-just-how-badly-president-joe-biden-is-doing/949851/164 "2021-09-02T04:47:22Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Biden stutters a bit, and is not an orator like Obama was. Everyone has difficulties in their life. Right. And condemning someone as “stupid” becuase they stutter is evil enough all by itself. Stuttering is not an indication of a lack of intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-be-the-only-person-stunned-at-just-how-badly-president-joe-biden-is-doing/949851/166 "2021-09-02T10:42:00Z")
This. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-be-the-only-person-stunned-at-just-how-badly-president-joe-biden-is-doing/949851/167 "2021-09-02T10:43:38Z")
What I see is that Biden is facing tough times, & doing what he can. As opposed to yapping about it, which is what Orange Former Guy did. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-be-the-only-person-stunned-at-just-how-badly-president-joe-biden-is-doing/949851/168 "2021-09-02T11:11:41Z")
> [@SunUp](#): > > Keep in mind that in 2009, when Obama was mulling over his options in Afghanistan, Biden counseled him to get the U.S. out of the country by the most expeditious route possible. > […] > So yeah, I’m ready to give him a pass on his eight years as veep The claim was “happened under other people’s watch” which is a pass I rarely hear two-term VP’s getting. It’s not enough to say he wanted out of Afghanistan. Put it like this: Let’s say that I am the Deputy Manager of a factory that has been making defective batteries for 8 years. When investigators come, is it enough to say “Hell, I told the boss we should be making ice cream instead of batteries, but he didn’t wanna”? No: given the decision to make batteries, it’s my (partial) responsibility to make sure _they work_. Now, if I had been saying for 8 years the way we are making batteries is flawed and needs to change, and the boss ignored me, then we could say I was absolved of blame. And likewise I’d want to hear that Biden did the equivalent with Afghanistan before giving him a pass. > [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > Not really, no. Even iff we’re laying the blame entirely on the POTUSs, IMHO it falls in this order. Bush Jr. \> Obama \> Trump \> Biden. Huh? What made you think I was putting most, or all, of the blame on Biden? I was simply arguing against the claim that he’s blameless, and even that it didn’t happen on his watch. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-be-the-only-person-stunned-at-just-how-badly-president-joe-biden-is-doing/949851/169 "2021-09-02T11:15:44Z")
Biden deserves the blame for what Biden did or didn’t do. But he doesn’t deserve _all_ the blame for the war - and the end of the war - in Afghanistan, despite the Republicans [busily rewriting history](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/rnc-trump-kabul-taliban-deal-b1903364.html). ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-be-the-only-person-stunned-at-just-how-badly-president-joe-biden-is-doing/949851/170 "2021-09-02T11:27:16Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > to be a bit frank, you seem to be coming from a place of ignorance. LOL. You begin with this sentence, and then the rest of your post completely concedes the point by giving examples of errors, but handwaving them as not important. Let’s go through the reasons you gave: > [@BigT](#): > > Without a stabilizing force, it was always going to go badly. > […] > The plan was always to get a stabilizing force in, but that didn’t work out. Right, which is an example of a failing, and something we could be critical of. Yes? > [@BigT](#): > > There also was no last minute scramble. All of these people have been told they need to leave for months now. They chose to stay, and the President of the United States has no power to force them to leave. Most have no ability to leave. The US relied on these people for years and they were critical to the safety of US troops. It’s not enough to tell them to go fish. > [@BigT](#): > > Last I checked, the VP does not have any authority over the military. And VP Biden was not delegated any extra by Obama powers as far as I know. So, no, it doesn’t count. Again, the statement was that this happened on other people’s watch, which is just nonsense. The VP doesn’t have authority over virtually anything, however he does have close communication with military commanders, all the same military briefings as the president and of course close contact with the president. Now, Biden told the president that we should leave Afghanistan. Good. But before I would consider him blameless, I would want to know what he did and said within the two terms where it was clear the US wasn’t going to leave anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-be-the-only-person-stunned-at-just-how-badly-president-joe-biden-is-doing/949851/171 "2021-09-02T11:46:58Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Biden deserves the blame for what Biden did or didn’t do. > > But he doesn’t deserve _all_ the blame for the war - and the end of the war - in Afghanistan, despite the Republicans [busily rewriting history](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/rnc-trump-kabul-taliban-deal-b1903364.html). Agreed. But we can be nuanced here on the Dope. We don’t have to say “Up” just because the other side said “Down”. And note that it is not only Republicans jumping to all-or-nothing positions like this. I was annoyed to watch _The David Pakman Show_ and hear a segment where he entirely talked about a straw man; that critics of Biden must necessarily want a forever war. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-be-the-only-person-stunned-at-just-how-badly-president-joe-biden-is-doing/949851/172 "2021-09-02T12:32:16Z")
I think I can be content with videos of cats doing silly things. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-be-the-only-person-stunned-at-just-how-badly-president-joe-biden-is-doing/949851/173 "2021-09-02T12:53:44Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/949981/7): > > Hi Mauve, > > I’ll try asking you what I asked the OP (who didn’t answer): > > What is Biden doing that you think he shouldn’t be doing? > > What is he not doing that you think he should be doing? > [@asahi](#): > > Why do you guys eat the bait? I like listening to crickets? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-be-the-only-person-stunned-at-just-how-badly-president-joe-biden-is-doing/949851.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-be-the-only-person-stunned-at-just-how-badly-president-joe-biden-is-doing/949851.md?page=9)