# Can I get a group together to pick a brand-new MLB HoF? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [August 30, 2023, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346 "2023-08-30T12:49:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![dirtball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dirtball/32/18772_2.png) [@dirtball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dirtball)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2023, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/41 "2023-08-31T13:48:48Z")
> [@Southern\_Yankee](#): > > Ruth, Mays and Ted Williams. I would agree with this. Put me down for a vote for each. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2023, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/42 "2023-08-31T13:56:54Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Ruth, Mays, Cobb I would like to change Cobb to Williams. I don’t like voting for someone like Cobb and Williams is a great choice. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2023, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/43 "2023-08-31T14:03:05Z")
Williams was kind of a dick too. It’s hard to compare because it seems like some of Cobb’s worst behavior was exaggerated at least. As always happens, when people pick the best ever it tends to skew heavily towards outfielders. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2023, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/44 "2023-08-31T14:06:38Z")
Cobb was especially bad though and Williams was just a bit of an ass that was also a Combat Ace during Korea and also served as a fighter pilot in WWII. So overall a Mensch by comparison. Remember, I’m a Yankee fan and I’m picking Williams over Joe D & Mickey. Not easy to narrow this to 3. But Ruth & Mays are absolute locks as far as I’m concerned. Honestly, I’m mainly voting for Williams as best chance to edge Bonds out of the first round. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2023, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/45 "2023-08-31T14:08:41Z")
I’m in. Ruth, Mays, Jackie Robinson. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2023, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/46 "2023-08-31T14:17:01Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Cobb was especially bad though His reputation as a massive asshole seems to be greatly exaggerated by a sportswriter who held a grudge against him. Here’s a good article from some years ago. Either way, I think Williams is a better pick - I want my first…ten or so picks to be a guy who was the all-time best \_\_\_\_\_ at something. If Cobb’s greatest strength was his hit tool, Williams still has him beat as the greatest pure hitter of all time. > **[Author says Cobb's reputation built on tales](https://www.mlb.com/news/ty-cobb-history-built-on-inaccuracies-c178601094)** > > CLEVELAND -- The building that housed one of Ty Cobb's most famous fights is gone. The old Euclid Hotel was razed long ago. In its place stands a glass-and-granite high-rise, gleaming in the spring sun.Were we to believe the legend, then right here,... ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2023, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/47 "2023-08-31T14:19:01Z")
OK, Part One (the easy part) is now concluded, with Ruth and Mays in, and Bonds and Williams tied (sorry, W-E?) for the third spot, and everyone else out. Part Two is relatively easy, too, and it’s another part that’s pretty uncontroversial (because anyone excluded from it will very likely get into Part Three, which is another no-brainer HoF cohort). If Ted Williams, for example, had finished fourth in the voting, I suspect that he would have led in the Part Two voting. In other words, Williams would have made the top four either way The question for Part Two is: “Excluding Ruth, Mays, Bonds, and Williams, name the all-time best player at each position.” (I’m dividing “Pitcher” into righthanded and lefthanded pitcher because if I don’t, pitchers will be under-represented in the HoF.) To make it easy to tally, please copy and paste the form below, or at least use the same order: **C—** **1B—** **2B—** **SS—** **3B—** **LF—** **CF—** **RF—** **RHP—** **LHP—** ---
**Author:** ![Wilson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@Wilson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wilson)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2023, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/48 "2023-08-31T14:34:15Z")
Are we limited to MLB only in this part? ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2023, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/49 "2023-08-31T14:37:09Z")
Yes, I suppose it doesn’t matter much, since non-MLB (and non-20th Century nominations for that matter) are likely to be wasted in a majority-rules system, like this one.) But I’ll try to include uncounted nominees in specialized votes later. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2023, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/50 "2023-08-31T14:40:40Z")
**C—** **Yogi Berra** , check his numbers, actually better than Bench and a got more rings. BTW Bill James agreed. **1B—** **Lou Gehrig** first number retired in baseball history. **2B—** **Jackie Robinson** , maybe not the best by talent and skill but the most important and most famous. **SS—** **Honus Wagner** , but boy do I want to vote for Jeter. **3B—** **Brook Robinson** for his glove. Schmidt is my 2nd choice. **LF—** **Ricky Henderson** , best Lead-off hitter and base stealer also. Keeping in mind that Williams & Bonds are excluded from this one. **CF—** **Mickey Mantle** By WAR he is at #2 behind Mays and I want to vote for him. Especially over Cobb. BTW Snider was #10 by WAR, what an embarressment of riches in NYC for CF in the 50s. **RF—** Hank Aaron Clemente would be a great choice too **RHP—** Christy Mathewson Walter Johnson is my 2nd choice. **LHP—** Warren Spahn Koufax’s prime years were too short and Whitey’s win total in probably too low. No **Relief Pitcher**? If so, **Mariano Rivera** in a walk. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2023, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/51 "2023-08-31T14:45:05Z")
C—Bench 1B—Gehrig 2B—Morgan SS—Wagner 3B—Schmidt LF—Musial CF—Mantle RF—Aaron RHP—Seaver LHP—Grove ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2023, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/52 "2023-08-31T14:47:29Z")
**C—** Josh Gibson **1B—** Lou Gehrig **2B—** Rogers Hornsby **SS—** Honus Wagner **3B—** Mike Schmidt **LF—** Stan Musial **CF—** Mickey Mantle **RF—** Hank Aaron **RHP—** Walter Johnson **LHP—** Randy Johnson This got tougher. I honestly think A-Rod was a better 3B than Schmidt, but Schmidt was purely a 3B, wasn’t a dick, and doesn’t have any baggage - and it was close enough that I’ll give Schmidt the bonus points. I’m ignoring the MLB-only suggestion for Gibson, because Josh Gibson was an absolute legend among people and players who saw him and played against him. If their accounts don’t count for anything, what’s the purpose of reading them? I can’t argue with someone who played against both Gibson and Hank Aaron, and says Gibson was a more ferocious hitter while playing the most demanding position in the game. Likewise with Walter Johnson. He wasn’t limited to the back of the baseball bus, but we really know little about him. Numbers from his era don’t easily translate, so how do you pick him over a more modern choice like Gibson or Clemens, or even a later but more modern choice like Lefty Grove or Alexander? I guess sportswriter consensus, and the fact that in a dead ball era when no one really struck out, The Big Train put up other-worldly numbers. I wish we could send Jacob deGrom back to teach him a slider. But I worry that if we did, Johnson wouldn’t have made baseball any fun to play for anyone else, and the sport would have died. I kind of wanted to hold off on Musial as a utility man who played around the OF plus 1B in favor of Rickey Henderson, but I just can’t. Rickey was such an amazing talent, and so absolute unique amongst the pantheon of great players, but The Man just produced at a higher level. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2023, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/53 "2023-08-31T14:49:46Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > If Cobb’s greatest strength was his hit tool, Williams still has him beat as the greatest pure hitter of all time. Good point. I’m changing Cobb to Ted Williams too. Does that change the first round results? ---
**Author:** ![Wilson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@Wilson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wilson)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2023, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/54 "2023-08-31T14:57:32Z")
**C—** Josh Gibson **1B—** Lou Gehrig **2B—** Eddie Collins **SS—** Alex Rodriguez **3B—** Mike Schmidt **LF—** Rickey Henderson **CF—** Oscar Charleston **RF—** Hank Aaron **RHP—** Walter Johnson **LHP—** Lefty Grove ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2023, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/55 "2023-08-31T15:05:09Z")
It pains me to pick Griffey over Joe D. but so be it. **C— Johnny Bench** **1B— Lou Gehrig** **2B— Rogers Hornsby** **SS— Ozzie Smith** **3B— Brooks Robinson** **LF— Stan Musial** **CF— Ken Griffey Jr.** **RF— Hank Aaron** **RHP— Tom Seaver** **LHP— Sandy Koufax** ---
**Author:** ![Eric\_C](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@Eric\_C](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eric_C)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2023, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/56 "2023-08-31T15:05:28Z")
**C—** Yogi Berra **1B—** Lou Gehrig **2B—** Joe Morgan **SS—** Honus Wagner **3B—** Eddie Mathews **LF—** Rickey Henderson **CF—** Ty Cobb **RF—** Henry Aaron **RHP—** Roger Clemens **LHP—** Warren Spahn ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2023, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/57 "2023-08-31T15:16:08Z")
Damn - I think Wilson’s list is better than mine. I still like Hornsby over Collins, but he didn’t make any excuses and went straight for Charleston. If I am going to allow for myth and legend to get Gibson in, then there’s no reason to not vote for Oscar. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2023, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/58 "2023-08-31T15:18:52Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Cobb was especially bad though and Williams was just a bit of an ass that was also a Combat Ace during Korea and also served as a fighter pilot in WWII. So overall a Mensch by comparison. > > Remember, I’m a Yankee fan and I’m picking Williams over Joe D & Mickey. Not easy to narrow this to 3. But Ruth & Mays are absolute locks as far as I’m concerned. > > Honestly, I’m mainly voting for Williams as best chance to edge Bonds out of the first round. I don’t want to hijack this into a discussion about Williams but I do want to take a second to recommend a documentary. _Ted Williams: The Greatest Hitter That Ever Lived_ was on PBS. You can find it online. It’s not a hit piece against Williams but it accurately shows him as a foul mouthed misanthrope. His active military service was unblemished but what is lost in the legend is the fact that he actively and publicly fought going into the military. To him playing baseball was much more important than a world war. As you can imagine that did not go well with the public at the time. It also goes into how he turned his back on his mother and the Mexican side of his family. His military service is one of the reasons why I put him as one of the best. He put up those kinds of numbers and missed 5 of his prime baseball years. ---
**Author:** ![dirtball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dirtball/32/18772_2.png) [@dirtball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dirtball)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2023, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/59 "2023-08-31T15:24:21Z")
C— Johnny Bench 1B— Lou Gehrig 2B— Jackie Robinson SS— Ernie Banks 3B— Mike Schmidt LF— Stan Musial CF— Joe DiMaggio RF— Roberto Clemente RHP— Bob Gibson LHP— Sandy Koufax ---
**Author:** ![Wilson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@Wilson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wilson)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2023, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/60 "2023-08-31T15:27:10Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Damn - I think Wilson’s list is better than mine. I still like Hornsby over Collins, but he didn’t make any excuses and went straight for Charleston. If I am going to allow for myth and legend to get Gibson in, then there’s no reason to not vote for Oscar. Collins vs Hornsby is very close, I’ll admit, and to be honest it’s hard not to pick Jackie Robinson at second. I will admit I’m having a hard time justifying Rickey over Musial in my mind - Musial’s peak and career value are probably a little above Rickey. I could say that I gave Rickey the edge because he was almost entirely a left fielder while Musial played first base the most, but the truth is he’s just a personal favorite so I gave him the nod. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346.md?page=4)