# Can I get a group together to pick a brand-new MLB HoF? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [August 30, 2023, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346 "2023-08-30T12:49:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Eric\_C](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@Eric\_C](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eric_C)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2023, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/81 "2023-09-02T20:07:21Z")
_American League_ **C—** Yogi Berra **1B—** Jimmie Foxx **2B—** Eddie Collins **SS—** Alex Rodriguez **3B—** Wade Boggs **LF—** Carl Yastrzemski **CF—** Ty Cobb **RF—** Frank Robinson **RHP—** Roger Clemens **LHP—** Lefty Grove **reliever** Mariano Rivera _ **National League** _ **C—** Mike Piazza **1B—** Albert Pujols **2B—** Joe Morgan **SS—** Barry Larkin **3B—** Eddie Mathews **LF—** Tim Raines **CF—** Duke Snider (edited. My original pick Jim O’Rourke played far more games in LF than CF). **RF—** Mel Ott **RHP—** Cy Young **LHP—** Warren Spahn **reliever** – no one ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2023, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/82 "2023-09-02T23:30:58Z")
_American League_ **C—** Yogi Berra **1B—** Jimmy Foxx **2B—** Eddie Collins **SS—** Alex Rodriguez **3B—** George Brett **LF—** Ty Cobb **CF—** Mike Trout **RF—** Frank Robinson **RHP—** Walter Johnson \*\*LHP—\*\*Lefty Grove **reliever** Mariano Rivera _ **National League** _ **C—** Roy Campanella **1B—** Albert Pujols **2B—** Rogers Hornsby **SS—** Ernie Banks **3B—** Eddie Mathews **LF—** Tim Raines **CF—** Ken Griffey Jr. **RF—** Roberto Clemente **RHP—** Bob Gibson **LHP—** Sandy Koufax **reliever** Trevor Hoffman I may have taken a _few_ liberties with OF positions… ---
**Author:** ![LoneRhino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lonerhino/32/1311_2.png) [@LoneRhino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LoneRhino)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2023, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/83 "2023-09-03T00:08:47Z")
American League C— Yogi Berra 1B—Frank Thomas 2B—Eddie Collins SS—Cal Ripken Jr. 3B—George Brett LF—Carl Yaz CF—Mickey Mantle RF—Frank Robinson RHP—Walter Johnson LHP—Lefty Grove relieverMariano Rivera National League C—Gary Carter 1B—Albert Pujols 2B—Jo Morgan SS—Ozzie Smith 3B—Eddie Matthews LF—Pete Rose CF—Duke Snider RF—Roberto Clemente RHP—Tom Seaver LHP—Steve Carlton Reliever–Billy Wagner ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2023, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/84 "2023-09-03T06:45:48Z")
American Leaguers: C - Yogi Berra 1B - Jimmie Foxx 2B - Derek Jeter SS - Cal Ripken Jr. 3B - George Brett LF - Carl Yastrzemski Cf - Joe DiMaggio RF - Frank Robinson RHP - Walter Johnson LHP - Lefty Grove Rel - Mariano Rivera National League C - Roy Campanella 1B - Albert Pujols 2B - Joe Morgan SS - Ozzie Smith 3B - Chipper Jones LF - Tim Raines CF - Duke Snider RF - Mel Ott RHP - G.C. Alexander LHP - Steve Carlton RP - Bruce Sutter ---
**Author:** ![SunUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SunUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunUp)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2023, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/85 "2023-09-03T08:50:49Z")
AL C – Yogi Berra 1B – Jimmie Foxx 2B – Eddie Collins SS – Alex Rodriguez 3B – George Brett LF – Ty Cobb CF – Ken Griffey Jr. RF – Reggie Jackson RHP – Walter Johnson LHP – Lefty Grove Reliever – Mariano Rivera NL C – Roy Campanella 1B – Willie McCovey 2B – Joe Morgan SS – Ernie Banks 3B – Eddie Matthews LF – Willie Stargell CF – Duke Snider RF – Mel Ott RHP – Bob Gibson LHP – Warren Spahn Reliever – Trevor Hoffman ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2023, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/86 "2023-09-03T13:23:12Z")
As we wait for further nominations to come trickling in, perhaps this would be an opportune moment to explain some rationales behind this Hall of Fame setup. The idea is a rejection of the in-or-out concept that agitates people so much, and in my view so unnecessarily. To my mind everyone has his own personal cut-off for who should be in and who should be out, and even a middle ground for players who might go into either category. So what we’re doing is setting up a Hall of Fame built from the top down like a pyramid, if you will, or like a series of concentric circles, or perhaps like a galactic spiral, in which the very center, the very peak, is occupied by an elite few and each succeeding level is both larger and slightly less brilliant than the one that preceded it. The idea is to make no one’s inclusion or exclusion into an insult or an honor. It is no insult, for example, to rate Willie Mays as the second-greatest player of all time, or Mike Schmidt as the seventh-greatest player of all time. No one on the list below is able to claim that he is clearly superior to the player ranked above him. Now at some point, perhaps a half dozen or a dozen steps further into the process, all of us will want to say “This is where my Hall of Fame stops." Perhaps that point for you is around player number 200, and perhaps for me it’s around player number 300 but we should be able to reach some consensus as to whether those two players are considered equal or unequal in terms of their ability. For those who favor a big Hall of Fame, player number 500 is fully qualified. Personally, I think that Dick McAuliffe, or whoever player number 500 turns out to be, needs to buy a ticket to get into Cooperstown but I have no problem with him being judged the five hundredth-best player in Major League history. It’s possible, even likely, that we will make some mistakes or omissions or oversights or impulsive choices in creating our hierarchy. But I will try to compensate for this likelihood very soon with a short series of questions concerning our choices to date. What I’d like to do is open the floor to nominations of those who have been categorically overlooked in our selection process, Negro Leaguers, Japanese players, 19th century stars and other categories so far overlooked, as well as giving you an opportunity to place the players already chosen higher or lower In the hierarchy. I’d also like to vote to resolve ties in the voting if possible. Ruth Mays Bonds Williams Gehrig- Aaron Schmidt Bench - Wagner Randy Johnson Musial- Mantle- Henderson Jackie Robinson ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2023, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/87 "2023-09-03T13:59:45Z")
Someone put Derek Jeter into the 2B slot a few posts above, note, even tho he never played a single inning there. And Ty Cobb as a LF in another. So what are the rules for putting someone in the wrong position? I considered Goose Gossage for the NL relief slot, but he did have more value when in the AL-would he have been disqualified if I had? American Leaguers: C - Iván Rodríguez 1B - Jimmie Foxx 2B - Eddie Collins SS - Alex Rodriguez 3B - Wade Boggs LF - Carl Yastrzemski CF - Joe DiMaggio RF - Frank Robinson RHP - Roger Clemens LHP - Lefty Grove Rel - Mariano Rivera National League C - Gary Carter 1B - Albert Pujols 2B - Joe Morgan SS - Ernie Banks 3B - Eddie Mathews LF - Pete Rose CF - Duke Snider RF - Mel Ott RHP - Greg Maddux LHP - Steve Carlton RP - Trevor Hoffman ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2023, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/88 "2023-09-03T14:03:20Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Someone put Derek Jeter into the 2B slot a few posts above, note, even tho he never played a single inning there. And Ty Cobb as a LF in another. @RickJay , was this inadvertent or intentional? I’m hoping these things will sort themselves out (i.e., that RickJay’s vote for Jeter will be wasted) or will be dealt with at a future re-consideration stage. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2023, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/89 "2023-09-03T14:03:58Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > Now at some point, perhaps a half dozen or a dozen steps further into the process, all of us will want to say “This is where my Hall of Fame stops." Perhaps that point for you is around player number 200, and perhaps for me it’s around player number 300 but we should be able to reach some consensus as to whether those two players are considered equal or unequal in terms of their ability. If a Doper hits his personal in-out level, would they be justified to list a blank slot at the given position(s)? Do we have the ultimate choice as to who gets in, or does the OP’er? If 75% return their CF slots blank, but Jim Edmonds gets the plurality of remaining votes, does he get in? [Note I think he got screwed by the BB HoF and deserved further consideration, just an example for the sake of argument] ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2023, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/90 "2023-09-03T14:08:23Z")
The way I’m imagining things, you’d be better off to vote for someone’s placement in the Hall of Very Good than not to cast a ballot at all. But sure you can leave a blank. The whole idea is to leave who’s in and who’s out up to individual voters. I’m sure I’ll vote for some of my favorites, if we ever get there, to be placed at #500 in this Hall, and I’m even surer that few people will consider that a true HoF level. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2023, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/91 "2023-09-03T14:45:57Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > And Ty Cobb as a LF in another. That was me. I probably should put him in RF and Frank Robinson in LF, just for a “46 games in left probably isn’t cricket” sort of argument. It was me trying to game the system a little to both Cobb and Trout in on the same ballot. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2023, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/92 "2023-09-03T16:45:03Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > I’m hoping these things will sort themselves out (i.e., that RickJay’s vote for Jeter will be wasted) or will be dealt with at a future re-consideration stage. That was a copy and paste error. It should have been Eddie Collins. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2023, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/93 "2023-09-03T17:21:15Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > should have been Eddie Collins. Noted. ---
**Author:** ![SunUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SunUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunUp)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2023, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/94 "2023-09-03T19:33:46Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > > [@John\_DiFool](#): > > > > And Ty Cobb as a LF in another. > > That was me. Me, too. Wanted to get Junior in there, and I had thought that Cobb had at least a couple seasons in left. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2023, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/95 "2023-09-03T20:06:53Z")
Not meaning to insult anybody, and speaking purely as another poster, not claiming any special status as the OP here, but this is kind of what I was trying to address with “reasonable and knowledgeable” students of the game. My idea was that people would try to be objective and let the game play out, so we’d see who a small, not entirely representative, group would select as Hall of Famers under the system put forward. I’m not looking to criticize anyone for their choices or their strategic decisions, but I hope we can avoid attempts to game the system. One could, for example, vote for all Yankees in a somewhat legitimate attempt to pack the Hall with Yankees, or for all Negro Leaguers to make a statement about the unfair process of the actual HoF, or for all shortstops playing every position as a way to say that defensive skills are overlooked, and I don’t feel right commenting on these choices, since I agree that the Yankees are a great franchise, that Negro Leaguers haven’t gotten a fair shake, that great defensive players do sometimes get neglected, and i want people to vote as they see fit. But I did set this system up to encourage people to vote not only as they personally feel about their nominees, but also to bear in mind how others will probably vote. That was why I voted for Bonds in the first round, though I would rather vote for him to spend a month in the stockade. I thought, “Yeah, I expect Bonds will get support from a lot of fans, and will probably get in early on–no sense in voting against him to see if I can finagle the voting so that he gets in #8 instead of #3.” Later on (or now) we can discuss whether Rose and Bonds and Joe Jackson and McQwire and Clemens should be in the Hall at all (it’s a tedious discussion for me, but I’ll get into it if people want to). I’d rather upgrade Cobb later on if we feel that he suffers unfairly from competition with other star CFers than force him into the lineup in LF (where he played fewer than 2 games per season) but it’s up to you. The system is designed, I think, to marginalize oddball personal choices so it doesn’t really have much effect if one or two people follow a personal agenda rather than a sense of justice here. So feel free to game the system, but I wish you wouldn’t. If you have a goal here, other than voting for the most deserving HoFers, it ought to be “Reasonable and knowledgeable students of the game will respect this ballot” rather than “I want to force Player X onto a higher spot in the rankings than most other voters think he deserves.” Again, just one fan’s opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2023, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/96 "2023-09-03T20:20:57Z")
I don’t disagree, but while I am enjoying this exercise, one thing that’s become obvious to me is that it’s hard for me to compare old players that I’m not overly familiar with (Tris Speaker, Eddie Collins, etc.) with players I have watched in real life. At the top of the pyramid it’s not that much of a challenge but as we get further along it’ll become more difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2023, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/97 "2023-09-03T20:27:09Z")
_American League_ **C—** Yogi Berra **1B—** Jimmie Foxx **2B—** Nap Lajoie **SS—** Derek Jeter **3B—** Edgar Martinez **LF—** Carl Yazstremski **CF—** Ken Griffey Jr **RF—** Reggie Jackson if for no other reason his clutchness in the playoffs although he did illegally hip that ball into right field. **RHP—** Pedro Martinez **LHP—** Whitey Ford **reliever** Mariano Rivera _ **National League** _ **C—** Roy Campanella **1B—** Willie McCovey **2B—** Joe Morgan **SS—** Ozzie Smith **3B—** Chipper Jones **LF—** Pete Rose **CF—** Joe Dimaggio **RF—** Roberto Clemente **RHP—** Christy Mathewson. I am going to keep putting him down when I can. I know there is a lot of bias against dead ball era pitchers but looks at his stats, he dominated his era. **LHP—** Sandy Koufax **reliever** – Trevor Hoffman ---
**Author:** ![SunUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SunUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunUp)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2023, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/98 "2023-09-03T22:16:42Z")
Just to make things clear on my part: > [@SunUp](#): > > Wanted to get Junior in there, was not me saying I wanted to get Junior in the HoF, but rather in _my list_. I realize I’m rating him higher than most others, but not in an effort to game the system. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2023, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/99 "2023-09-03T23:26:17Z")
Yes, “recency bias” is definitely something we’ll run into. It doesn’t trouble me as much as perhaps it should because while I think any bias is bad, especially bias based on one’s own personal preferences, I also think it’s true that more recent players are superior to older players, due to better, more varied competition (from black and foreign players primarily) and improvement in rules and equipment that make success harder. But taken too far, recency bias can definitely work against old-time players in general, so I’ll need to include some questions to work older players, particularly 19th century players about whom I know very little, into the nomination process in a way that’s fair to everyone. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2023, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346/100 "2023-09-03T23:38:29Z")
> [@SunUp](#): > > I’m rating him higher than most others, but not in an effort to game the system. The problem here, I think, is not that you rate Junior as highly as you do but rather that you felt the need to squeeze Cobb into your voting. You seem to think that Cobb deserves being in at a high level, but you also want Junior as your fourth-best CFer. (Or maybe third?) Cobb in LF may be plausible, or arguable, but the reality is that we’re choosing only so many centerfielders so far, and you want one more voted in now. Like I say, it’s arguable, but it is a kind of gaming of the system. Maybe I should have a question that disregards leagues, positions, etc. and just asks for nominees in whatever category you like, though I’m afraid that voters will take that as an invitation to nominate their personal sentimental favorites. No harm there, I suppose: if you want to nominate Jose Oquendo, it’s unlikely that he’ll get any votes other than yours. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-get-a-group-together-to-pick-a-brand-new-mlb-hof/989346.md?page=6)