That story made my day.
Maybe there is hope for western civilization after all.
Is it really being detained or delayed? Sure, you can’t get into your car and drive off, but you have the option of walking away and calling a cop, or a cab. I see it the same way as I see someone blocking the entrance to a mall or something. You want to go inside, someone’s preventing you from doing so. You have the option of going another way, or somewhere else. I really don’t see detention from this.
For most definitions of delayed…and some of detained…uhhhh…yes.
Haha - I’m flattered you remembered! 
I passed the bar, but I’m not getting sworn in until Wednesday.
I’ll have to defer to the specific statutes for the jurisdiction then. I just wanted to make clear that I would not consider it detention by any means. Just really really annoying. I would give him a few bucks and shoo him off before I shoved or pushed him though, I guess I’m more pacifistic than most of you
Yes, someone intentionally standing behind your car, preventing you from legally maneuvering the vehicle is commencing in illegal detainment. I’m morally certain that in virtually all municipalities he could be cited for it, and any other offenses arising from such detainment (i.e. being late for work, missing a flight, et cetera) can be pursued for damages in civil court. Whether you can find some other means to egress the area is irrelevant; the offender is taking an action with the intent of intimidating or extorting you into giving him money.
And on a tangential note, why in the hell would you reward someone for such behavior by “giv[ing] him a few bucks”? All that has accomplished is that you’ve given him reinforcement for his belief that if he acts in a bullying and passively threatening manner he’ll be rewarded. He’ll then come back and do the same to the next person, et cetera, until he comes to the opinion that he is actually entitled to do this. This isn’t “pacifistic”; this is cowardly and encouraging of discourteous, illegal, and threatening behavior. The same type of reinforcement that makes spoiled brats out of normal, intelligent children turns unfortunate and indigents into career petty criminals who feed off of intimidating other people, and the more they learn to be effective at it, the more aggressive and presumptuous they’ll be about it until somebody gets hurt. By being compliant, you’re not being a good-natured fella with a heart of gold; you’re being an irresponsible citizen who makes the situation worse for everyone else.
Stranger
Since the panhandling status of the other person seems to be understandably hitting some buttons here, lets change it into something less unsavory. Say a political activist who is asking you to sign a petition. It’s a perfectly reasonable petition, but you don’t agree with it, so you decline.
Part of my point it - I want to drive away as quickly and as safely to myself as possible. Waiting for the police is suboptimal. Walking away or calling a cab is suboptimal. Pushing his arm, thereby initiating physical contact is suboptimal. Threatening/warning that I will be closing the door, and then doing so, seems optimal, as long as he gets his hand out of the way in time. Heck, if I do catch his fingers, I’ve got to open the door again to let him get them out.
I see it differently. This guy, by being a pandhandler and living on the streets, is already worse off than most of us will be in our lifetimes. It doesn’t harm me to show a little courtesy and sympathy to a guy down in the dumps. I’m not going to kick him while he’s down and tell him he must also conform to my ideas of etiquette while living on handouts. I might be rewarding shitty behavior, but what has it cost me? A couple bucks? I can spare that. Maybe he’ll use it for food, maybe for booze or drugs, but if I am forced to assume every one of these guys is a deadbeat addict, then I might as well fling my humanity out the nearest window. If it reinforces a bad behavior, I guess you can be comforted in knowing that more people think like you and will shove him aside rather than show some kindness. Maybe because so many people do ignore him did he have to resort to this type of aggressiveness. If all of us were a little nicer and a little more generous, and can afford it, I don’t see why the possibility of feeding a starving man for one meal can possibly be outweighed by apathy and rudeness
You should not make the situation he is creating (that of simple assault or detainment) anyone else’s fault.
He has a “right” to ask me for some money. I have a right to refuse.
He does not have a right to be aggressive. If he gets aggressive, that is a situation he created.
What if all I had was a twenty? Is it my tough luck for not carrying smaller bills? Can he enter my home and help himself to whatever because his needs are higher?
You don’t have to, nor should you, feel the need to be as sympathetic as I would. We all have the right to refuse, I would simply choose not to exercise it in light of his condition. And I’ve given 20’s before, twice. I just skipped lunch. I’m not rich, but I can spare a few bucks.
Just wondering, exactly how many times have you tried this?
I’ve seen some aggressive petitioners, but I’ve never had one follow me to my car or otherwise seriously inhibit me from going about my business.
You seem to be conflating one concept (charity and kindness for the indigent) with another (compliance with aggressive panhandling and illegal detention. The first is a virtuous and humanistic virtue which is best channelled into volunteering your time and money into local, directly accountable charities that provide social services for the homeless and indigent, such as food banks, shelters, et cetera. The second is reinforcement of aggressive behavior that benefits no one (ultimately not even the offender), and while it may you feel all warm in fuzzy inside to imagine the person having a warm meal, the reality is that he is very likely spending it on booze or drugs, and your perceived generosity is just facilitating his spiral. Would you give an alcoholic a glass of whiskey and call it kindness? Because that is what you are doing when you give money to the guy who comes up and panhandles you.
I have been homeless (albeit not drug-addicted, digging through the trash, harassing people for money homeless) and I can say that both from my experiences and what I have read on both first hand and sociological study of the persistent homeless population that most people who are in such a state are either there by some measure of volition (unwilling to give up behaviors like drug use or not having to report for a job), or lack the basic mental and social abilities to cope with everyday life. In neither case are you doing anyone any good by giving money in response to such tactics and reinforcing aggressive behavior that may ultimately become overtly threatening, if not to you than to some person down the road.
Rejecting rudeness and aggressive panhandling is not a failure to show kindness; I’m under no obligation to be courteous to someone who is not respectful to me, and this idea that if we were all just a little more charitable and caring ignores the basic human condition that some people will naturally prey on the good intentions of others. They guy who is aggressively begging and extorting you for money by preventing you from closing your door or moving your car is brother to the guy who sexually intimidates and forcibly assaults a woman because he deserved sex, or the bully who goes through life pushing family members, coworkers, and “friends” out of his way. People who are genuinely involuntarily homeless typically seek every reasonable means to find work and legitimate social services to improve their situation. The guy on the corner who screams insults and follows you isn’t trying to improve his situation; he’s using the general social expectation that when you are insulted it is because you’ve done some wrong and owe remuneration, and when you respond as expected you reinforce his view that he deserves this.
You can pat yourself on the back all you like, but what you are doing is not charity, it is encouraging bullying and extortion. If you want to help, help the people who actually need and will make use of assistance, not those who will just use it to justify further bad behavior.
Stranger
That may all be true. And it may not be. I am less quick to take offense than you are. An instance of aggressiveness may be sociopathical, or it may be desperation. I choose to see the latter.
Maybe you were the model citizen when you were homeless, going to shelters, asking people for money once, courteous when refused or thankful when given, but I find it hard to believe that everybody isn’t allowed to mess up once, which seems to be your stance. Either way, I’m going to continue my way of charity, and yes I do donate to organizations and food banks, and not assume aggressiveness is an inherent sign of some kind of defect.
I’ve only had to punch someone in the throat twice; in both times, I was being threatened with a weapon and wanted to end the conflict as quickly as possible. While there is certainly the possibility of doing grievous harm with such a strike, it is more difficult to collapse the trachea than people imagine, and a light jab or web hand strike to the throat will generally just do enough to get an attacker’s attention and make it hard for him to breathe or render threats for a few minutes. In general, it’s a strike that will remove even a serious predator’s ability to pursue an attack, and thus, more effective at quickly ending a fight than a mere pain-inducing attack like a kick to the groin or shin. Done properly and not to excess, it’s a good option when you are facing down someone doing a monkey dance “attack” (i.e. someone trying to show off and intimidate) without risking the kind of permanent injury that collapsing the knee or getting into grappling and pain compliance techniques of varying effectiveness. Of course, as with any physical engagement, there is always the danger of hitting harder than expected, and if you put the full thrust of your mass behind it the guy is going to be breathing through a tube. But anyone stupid enough to block open someone’s door and try to force their way into their home is presenting a potential threat to life and well-being.
Stranger
Spot on.
A stranger is trying to break intoyour car while you’re trying to get away–seems almost like a car jacking to me–I’d “fear for my life”, slam the door and speed away.
Of course, when he tells the authorities, his story would have a different spin on it, but well, it is your word against his…
As a compassionate member of society, you should also be thinking about what it costs others for you to capitulate to and reward said shitty behavior. Encouraging such a person to harass and intimidate people does far more harm than the supposed good of giving him money.
I feel a need to clarify what I see as your position: Because so many people will not give to a panhandler under any circumstances, the panhandler often gets aggressive due to desperation. If more people would help them out before they get to the point of being aggressive, it would eliminate the problem before it starts.
The second part seems to be overinflation of a single act. Sure, giving the guy money when he’s being aggressive isn’t the optimal solution, but it may help you get out of the situation more easily. It’s just like when someone points a gun at you point blank and demands you give them all your money. Pretty much all guides recommend going ahead and giving them the money in that situation, as attempting to disarm has a greater chance of failure.
Yes, thank you for that. You put it better than I could.
Other people, apparently, aren’t so much harassed or intimidated as annoyed, and will simply shove or punch the guy. Maybe they would like me to stop helping to perpetuate that behavior, but I’m neither their parent nor the parent of the panhandler: if those people don’t want to give, they can do the dirty work of refusing or shoving themselves, I feel no obligation to help them curb that behavior
It’s all about how you percieve the assault. If you feel sufficiently threatened, you can react with appropriate force. But then you are held to the standard of could a normal rational person feel that threatened in that situation.