Can I really get "ordained" as a marrying minister online?

[WhyNot]

Good answers to the legal question (“it depends”), so I’ll tackle the assumption: unless you’re really ready to work your ass off, you won’t pick up much extra money doing weddings. Most of your weddings are going to be for people you know, and they tend not to pay. If a person wants to hire you, $50 is about all the market will bear, but most people don’t charge even that. You’ve got to do a lot of marketing if you want to make a living at it. I know lots and lots of ordained ministers (some from brick-and-mortar congregations, most online ordinations), including me, and not a single one makes a living wage at it. It’s something you do either because you have an honest calling or because your friends want you to be included in their ceremony.

I make more from doing House Blessings/Cleansings and Baby Blessings (which don’t require Ordination and aren’t a legal thing), and I still don’t make enough in a year to file taxes on it. I do it because I’m asked, and I can, and I feel good helping people.

Other than that, I use my Ordination to visit friends or family in the hospital without being hassled about visiting hours, and to get discount parking at those same hospitals. I’m on a couple of local hospitals lists under Clergy, Other, in case an Other wants to talk to a priest who’s not Christian, but I’ve never been called.

Neopagans tend to gravitate to online ordination simply because very few of us are members of a legally incorporated church. We may study for years under very rigorous programs (as I did), but that piece of paper the state wants us to have can’t come from the people who trained us.

[kanicbird]

@svd678

One of my professors said two things about ordination: 1. The Holy Spirit may call whoever He wishes to ministry. 2. The Church has an obligation to protect the world against fraud.

I don’t agree with stated reason #2, though God can use the church in that way, but it is God alone who protects the world and the church. Taking on burdens, in this case of judgment in the name of protecting the people, not given to them gives them a big problem.

God has nothing to do with them. The church has an obligation to test a person’s call - what church? I can think of several hundred. Not someone who ordains himself.

You just said it is the Holy Spirit who may call who He wishes. Scripture has many examples of people called out of obscurity to the ministry without certified studies, Jesus being just one of them. Perhaps more people without certification then with. One of the greatest, called by Jesus as the greatest (or ‘no one is greater’), was John the Baptist.

It was Jesus who asked the religious authorities who authorized John, was it by man or God. Your professor seems to be making the same error as the pharisees.

Paul ordained Timothy and told him to study, not just go out and do it. No US government can decide on a church’s validity except on the most elemental level, so acceptance of a “certificate” is not proof of anything except a minimum pretense.

And here is the problem, Paul learned not from a person but from the Lord directly and the Lord does not issue certificates. Many others came from obscurity including the apostles.

[svd678]

So, Kanacbird, you’re OK with the Church of Dudeism? …since you don’t want any standards…

[Cheesesteak]

If you’re in NYC, you have to register as clergy with the city clerks office. At least, that’s what my chiropractor did when he got ordained online to officiate my wedding. You also should expect to handle the required paperwork, getting documents signed, witnesses, etc. If you go ULC, double check that their ordination is accepted.

While it’s a bit of a laugh to get ordained online to officiate a friend’s wedding, you do have to give it a reasonable amount of consideration, as you are taking part in an important legal matter. When I talk to people who are going to be having a wedding, I remind them that as long as they are married at the end of the day, it was a good wedding. You don’t want to be the reason that gets screwed up.

[kanicbird]

@svd678

So, Kanacbird, you’re OK with the Church of Dudeism? …since you don’t want any standards…

The standard it God’s not mine. If you feel you are called go for it and God bless. We scripturally all have ministries.

You can see this in Acts, if it is of God it will prosper, if not it will be destroyed.

[legalsnugs]

Wait a minute here! Are you all saying that in the State of New York, you can’t get married without an ordained minister? How do the atheists get married? In South Carolina and Florida (two states I’ve lived in), a notary public can perform a wedding ceremony and no religion is necessary at all. Not true in NY?

[kayaker]

@WhyNot

you won’t pick up much extra money doing weddings.

I made out like a bandit at the reception. Not money, but food and drink!

[A2Steve]

When I got married (in Washtenaw Co, MI) we had a friend do the ULC ordination for us. We specifically asked at the county clerk’s office if there would be any problem with it, and we were told that anyone you thought was valid to perform your ceremony would therefore be valid.
The best part was getting him to close the ceremony with “by the powers vested in me by the Internet”!

[kanicbird]

@legalsnugs

Wait a minute here! Are you all saying that in the State of New York, you can’t get married without an ordained minister? How do the atheists get married?

I believe they are not legally prevented from using an ordained minister, though I think a justice of the peace could be used also.

[hajario]

@svd678

Of course its only pretend: ordination is by a church, not by a seller of phony certificates. (Come to me for tax help - I have a copy of Intuit - that ought to be enough, credentials,right?)

Fail. The Universal Life Church ordains people for free. I was ordained by them in 2000 and have performed two perfectly legal marriages here in California.

@svd678

One of my professors said two things about ordination: 1. The Holy Spirit may call whoever He wishes to ministry. 2. The Church has an obligation to protect the world against fraud. The Universal Life Church exists only to purvey PHONEY ordination certificates. God has nothing to do with them. The church has an obligation to test a person’s call - what church? I can think of several hundred. Not someone who ordains himself. Paul ordained Timothy and told him to study, not just go out and do it. No US government can decide on a church’s validity except on the most elemental level, so acceptance of a “certificate” is not proof of anything except a minimum pretense.

Good thing virtually no one on Earth gives a shit what your professor thinks. You don’t like it? That’s fine. Choose a minister of your choosing if and when you get married. The rest of us will do the same.

[ethelbert]

I was married in NYC by a Universal Life Minister (in the 70’s). It was my understanding that it was not legal, so we tied the knot the next day at City Hall (which I presume is how atheists get married).

[Dangerosa]

@Hello_Again

NOLA, its not whether it’s generally legal, but whether it is legal in New York. New York State has fairly arcane laws about who can marry who.

Essentially, to marry others in most of the state you must be a religious officiant of a “congregation” OR the Clerk or a Town Mayor OR a sitting judge who’s willing to do it for free. Domestic Relations Law Section 11 (browse NYS laws here)

Secular officiants such as Justice of the Peace do not exist in NYS.

HOWEVER, online ministries are permitted within the boundaries of Manhattan ONLY. (a court case*, in the Second Department (which encompasses Brooklyn, Queens, and all of Long Island) found the Universal Life Church credentials were invalid to marry in their jurisdiction and the marriage thus performed was void. It is hard to sure if a marriage performed under ULC will be considered valid within New York State, outside of Manhattan where it is permitted, and Brooklyn, Queens, Nassau and Suffolk, where it is definitely not permitted.

Offiants in New York City must be registered to officiate in New York City with the office of the City clerk.

*Ranieri v. Ranieri, 146 A.D.2d 34, for those interested

I don’t see anything in that statute that specifies a congregation.

§  11.  By  whom  a  marriage must be solemnized. No marriage shall be

valid unless solemnized by either:
* 1. A clergyman or minister of any religion, or by the senior leader,
or any of the other leaders, of The Society for Ethical Culture in the
city of New York, having its principal office in the borough of
Manhattan, or by the leader of The Brooklyn Society for Ethical Culture,
having its principal office in the borough of Brooklyn of the city of
New York, or of the Westchester Ethical Society, having its principal
office in Westchester county, or of the Ethical Culture Society of Long
Island, having its principal office in Nassau county, or of the
Riverdale-Yonkers Ethical Society having its principal office in Bronx
county, or by the leader of any other Ethical Culture Society affiliated
with the American Ethical Union.
* NB Effective until July 24, 2011
* 1. A clergyman or minister of any religion, or by the senior leader,
or any of the other leaders, of The Society for Ethical Culture in the
city of New York, having its principal office in the borough of
Manhattan, or by the leader of The Brooklyn Society for Ethical Culture,
having its principal office in the borough of Brooklyn of the city of
New York, or of the Westchester Ethical Society, having its principal
office in Westchester county, or of the Ethical Culture Society of Long
Island, having its principal office in Nassau county, or of the
Riverdale-Yonkers Ethical Society having its principal office in Bronx
county, or by the leader of any other Ethical Culture Society affiliated
with the American Ethical Union; provided that no clergyman or minister
as defined in section two of the religious corporations law, or Society
for Ethical Culture leader shall be required to solemnize any marriage
when acting in his or her capacity under this subdivision.
* NB Effective July 24, 2011
* 1-a. A refusal by a clergyman or minister as defined in section two
of the religious corporations law, or Society for Ethical Culture leader
to solemnize any marriage under this subdivision shall not create a
civil claim or cause of action or result in any state or local
government action to penalize, withhold benefits or discriminate against
such clergyman or minister.

“A clergyman or leader of any religion…”

[Dangerosa]

@svd678

One of my professors said two things about ordination: 1. The Holy Spirit may call whoever He wishes to ministry. 2. The Church has an obligation to protect the world against fraud. The Universal Life Church exists only to purvey PHONEY ordination certificates. God has nothing to do with them. The church has an obligation to test a person’s call - what church? I can think of several hundred. Not someone who ordains himself. Paul ordained Timothy and told him to study, not just go out and do it. No US government can decide on a church’s validity except on the most elemental level, so acceptance of a “certificate” is not proof of anything except a minimum pretense.

Which “church?” - cause I can assure you that the moment we decide the Wahhabi’s get to determine who can perform marriages, it won’t just be Universal Life Ministers who find themselves unable to tie the knot.

[friedo]

@legalsnugs

Wait a minute here! Are you all saying that in the State of New York, you can’t get married without an ordained minister? How do the atheists get married? In South Carolina and Florida (two states I’ve lived in), a notary public can perform a wedding ceremony and no religion is necessary at all. Not true in NY?

You can use a judge.

[Derleth]

@Hello_Again

Secular officiants such as Justice of the Peace do not exist in NYS.

@friedo

You can use a judge.

OK, reconcile these statements, please. (Also ethelbert’s)

[friedo]

Justices of the peace are not necessarily the same as judges.

I believe town and city clerks can also perform weddings in New York, as long as they are registered officiants.

ETA: This

@Hello Again

Secular officiants such as Justice of the Peace do not exist in NYS.

Is definitely not true; secular officers of various sorts as others have mentioned are allowed to be wedding officiants in New York, but in some cases they may need to be registered as officiants.

Here’s how you get married at the NYC Clerk’s office, for example.

[friedo]

And some more helpful information from the NYC Clerk’s office

@City Hall

Generally, the following people may register [as wedding officiants]:

* Clergy members or ministers of any religion;
* Leaders of the Society of Ethical Culture;
* The Mayor or any former Mayor of the City of New York;
* Federal, state, or local judges or justices, elected or appointed in the State of New York, who are currently serving or retired;
* The Clerk of the Appellate Division of the First or Second Department; and
* The County Clerk of any of the five counties in the City of New York.

Weddings conducted within New York City must be conducted by a registered officiant (ordination alone is not sufficient.)

Requirements vary elsewhere in the state.

[Hello_Again]

@Dangerosa

I don’t see anything in that statute that specifies a congregation.

“A clergyman or leader of any religion…”

The definition of a clergyman or minister is found in the Religious Corporations law section 2 (cited in Domestic Relations law)

The term “clergyman” and the term “minister” include a duly authorized
pastor, rector, priest, rabbi, and a person having authority from, or in
accordance with, the rules and regulations of the governing
ecclesiastical body of the denomination or order, if any, to which the
church belongs, or otherwise from the church or synagogue to preside
over and direct the spiritual affairs of the church or synagogue.

A church may be either incorporated or unicorporated. Either variety must gather or the purpose of worship:
An “incorporated church” is a religious corporation created to enable
its members to meet for divine worship or other religious observances.
An “unincorporated church” is a congregation, society, or other
assemblage of persons who are accustomed to statedly meet for divine
worship or other religious observances, without having been incorporated
for that purpose.

Actually getting married as an atheist can present a problem in NYS, if you want an officiated ceremony (you can always be married by the Clerk, and have a ceremony with no legal effect). While you can have a judge marry you, there are no judges assigned (or even required) to perform this specific task, and a judge is unlikely to agree unless he knows you personally. If you happen not to know a judge, you have a bit of a problem. The usual end-run is a variety of highly secular rabbis and ministers.

[gazpacho]

New York City

City Clerk

Who is Eligible to Register

Section 11 of the Domestic Relations Law of the State of New York shows the list of people who are eligible to perform Marriage Ceremonies within the State of New York.
Read this section of the law
Generally, the following people may register:
    Clergy members or ministers of any religion;
    Leaders of the Society of Ethical Culture;
    The Mayor or any former Mayor of the City of New York;
    Federal, state, or local judges or justices, elected or appointed in the State of New York, who are currently serving or retired;
    The Clerk of the Appellate Division of the First or Second Department; and
    The County Clerk of any of the five counties in the City of New York.
If you are a member of the above stated list and have not previously registered to perform Marriage Ceremonies in the City of New York, please continue reading to learn how to register.

But you do have to register and pay a $15 one time fee to be registered as an efficient.

The Society for Ethical Culture looks like a pretty decent choice for atheists.

ETA so late so very late

[Hello_Again]

@friedo

Justices of the peace are not necessarily the same as judges.

I believe town and city clerks can also perform weddings in New York, as long as they are registered officiants.

ETA: This

Sorry, I didn’t state that well. There is no guaranteed source of for-hire secular marriage officiating in New York. Most officiants (unless you are lucky enough to convince a mayor or judge to preside) have some religious affiliation.

The clerk only marries people at the office of the clerk/City Hall/Town hall, whichever government building applies.