# Can I renounce my citizenship? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 30, 2006, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-renounce-my-citizenship/350488 "2006-03-30T01:47:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-renounce-my-citizenship/350488/1 "2006-03-30T01:47:55Z")
Of course, it’d cause untold problems. But in principle, could someone renounce their citizenship? And if I did so, what would my national status be? Would I be deported (and where to?)? ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-renounce-my-citizenship/350488/2 "2006-03-30T02:09:07Z")
Having known someone who did, I can tell you some of what happens. He took the precaution of becoming a Canadian landed immigrant (more or less analogous to a US green card. That meant that he could in principle travel, on special stateless person papers issued by Canada that basically said they would take him back. Without that no country would admit you unless it was prepared to take you permanently. If you stayed in the US and were stateless, you could not leave since no country would allow you in for the same reasons. Beyond that, I have no idea if you could legally work or get welfare or anything like that. You are not the same as an illegal alien, but also not the same as a green card holder. You would have to examine the law. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-renounce-my-citizenship/350488/3 "2006-03-30T02:09:23Z")
[The Master speaks.](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_229.html) ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-renounce-my-citizenship/350488/4 "2006-03-30T02:09:27Z")
[The Master Speaks](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_229.html) Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-renounce-my-citizenship/350488/5 "2006-03-30T02:11:22Z")
[Cecil speaks, with commentary by a certain reader](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_229.html). More than anyone needs to know about it. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-renounce-my-citizenship/350488/6 "2006-03-30T02:12:15Z")
… [Uncle Sam speaks](http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html). Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-renounce-my-citizenship/350488/7 "2006-03-30T02:13:03Z")
Sweet meeting of the minds, here… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-renounce-my-citizenship/350488/8 "2006-03-30T02:13:08Z")
Wow, a triple! Good work, guys! ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-renounce-my-citizenship/350488/9 "2006-03-30T02:24:23Z")
Thanks, all. I’d assume it’s pretty similar over here (although there may be European complications). ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-renounce-my-citizenship/350488/10 "2006-03-30T02:31:46Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Thanks, all. I’d assume it’s pretty similar over here (although there may be European complications). I should say so. I will tell the the most crap sounding story that is actually true you will ever here in your life. A man has [has been stuck in the Charles De Gaulle airport in Paris since 1988](http://www.snopes.com/travel/airline/airport.asp) because his citizenship status got really screwed up during a trip and, once he landed in Paris, there was no legal way for him to leave. That story is up to date as of 2003 or so and I would guess it still is. He eventually just went crazy and declined efforts for various governments to help him. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-renounce-my-citizenship/350488/11 "2006-03-30T02:41:32Z")
Mmm, i’d heard about that guy. Seems he used to actually want to get into the UK ( I think it was there ) but by now he’s lost his marbles. Good ol’ bureacracy! ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-renounce-my-citizenship/350488/12 "2006-03-30T02:56:53Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Mmm, i’d heard about that guy. Seems he used to actually want to get into the UK ( I think it was there ) but by now he’s lost his marbles. Good ol’ bureacracy! [Once again…](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a990820.html) ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-renounce-my-citizenship/350488/13 "2006-03-30T03:01:13Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > That story is up to date as of 2003 or so and I would guess it still is. He eventually just went crazy and declined efforts for various governments to help him. > [@](#): > > Nasseri, an Iranian asylum seeker who was granted refugee status in Belgium then lost his documents, has been living at the airport since 1988, despite French and Belgian offers to accommodate him. Source: [CNN - 27 March 2006](http://www.cnn.com/2006/TRAVEL/03/24/bad.airports/) You can’t get a closer update than that! ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-renounce-my-citizenship/350488/14 "2006-03-30T03:27:40Z")
Here’s a guy who tried to do something similar, as a tax protest: \*On September 28, 1999, the [Cleveland Municipal] Court entered judgment for plaintiff [the State of Ohio] against defendant in the sum of $482.10, with statutory interest to run from the date of judgment. The Court now has before it a “Certified Demand for Proof of Jurisdiction,” " Nunc Pro Tunc Estoppel at Law and Public Notice Recission Affidavit" and other documents prepared by Robert Z. Manashian, apparently a principal of defendant, and filed on October 17, 2002. Manashian (hereinafter “defendant”) asserts, among other things, that he is a “state citizen and principal… not a sub class U.S. citizen [but] a Sovereign American Citizen ‘only’ [and] no longer a 14th Amendment citizen.” The Ohio Rules of Civil Procedure do not contemplate such documents. The Court will treat them as a motion to dismiss for lack of jurisdiction over the person under Civ.R. 12(B)(2), and will rule accordingly… Even if the Court were persuaded of the validity of defendant’s assertion of sovereignty - which it definitely is not - it would avail him nothing against a lawful judgment entered against him more than three years earlier. To evade that judgment, defendant wishes to set himself outside the structure of ordered liberty provided by the laws of this state and this nation. President George Washington once warned, “If the laws are to be trampled upon with impunity, and a minority (a small one too) is to dictate to the majority, there is an end put, at one stroke, to republican government.” Flexner, Washington: The Indispensable Man (Little, Brown and Co. 1969), p. 316. It is hard to conceive of a minority smaller than one. Defendant is a citizen of this state unless and until he establishes residency in another state, or in another country. He is a citizen of the United States unless and until he undertakes those steps provided under Federal law for revocation of citizenship - and, incidentally, subjects himself to deportation. 8 U.S. Code 1229, 1481; see also Afroyim v. Rusk (1967), 387 U.S. 253. Clearly, defendant wishes to have his cake of citizenship and eat it too. He wishes to live in this state, drive on its roads, walk on its paths, be protected by its constitution, laws, courts and officers, and enjoy all of its rights and blessings, while shirking its responsibilities - including the responsibility to pay his lawful debts. This is repugnant to both the letter and spirit of the law, and this, the Court will not permit him to do… Defendant’s filings are a nullity, of no legal force and effect whatsoever. The Court’s judgment of September 28, 1999, stands. State of Ohio v. Bob Manashian Painting\* (2002), 121 Ohio Misc.2d 99. ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-renounce-my-citizenship/350488/15 "2006-03-30T04:13:26Z")
Didn’t Lee Harvey Oswald renounce his U.S. citizenship, and then get it back? ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-renounce-my-citizenship/350488/16 "2006-03-30T06:16:06Z")
> [@BarnOwl](#): > > Didn’t Lee Harvey Oswald renounce his U.S. citizenship, and then get it back? > [@](#): > > OSWALD: Well. As I er, well – I will answer that question directly then as you will not rest until you get your answer. I worked in Russia. I was not under the protection of the – that is to say I was not under protection of the American government, but as I was at all times considered an American citizen I did not lose my American citizenship. > > SLATTER: Did you say that you wanted to at one time though? What happened? > > OSWALD: Well it’s a long drawn out situation in which permission to live in the Soviet Union being granted to a foreign resident is rarely given. This calls for certain amount of technicality, technical papers and so forth. At no time, as I say, did I renounce my citizenship or attempt to renounce my citizenship, and at no time was I out of contact with the American embassy. > > BUTLER: Excuse me, may I interrupt just one second. Either one of these two statements is wrong. The Washington Evening Star of Oct. 31, 1959 page 1 reported that Lee Harvey Oswald a former Marine, 4936 Connally St., Ft. Worth, Texas has turned in his passport at the American Embassy in Moscow on that same date and it says that he had applied for Soviet citizenship. Now it seems to me that you’ve renounced your American citizenship if you’ve turned in your passport. > > OSWALD: Well the obvious answer to that is that I am back in the United States. A person who renounces his citizenship becomes legally disqualified for return to the U.S. > > BUTLER: Right. And ‘Soviet authorities – this is from the Washington Post and Times Herald of Nov. 16 1959 – Soviet authorities have refused to grant it although they informed him he could live in Russia as a resident alien’. What did you do in the two weeks from Oct. 31, to Nov. 16, 1959? > > OSWALD: As I have already stated, of course, this whole conversation, and we don’t have too much time left, is getting away from the Cuban-American problem. However, I am quite willing to discuss myself for the remainder of this program. As I stated it is very difficult for a resident alien, for a foreigner to get permission to reside in the Soviet Union. During those two weeks and during the dates you mentioned I was of course with the knowledge of the American Embassy, getting this permission. Source: [McAdams's Kennedy Assassination Home Page Index](http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/stuck3.htm) > [@](#): > > Oct. 16, 1959 > > To the Supreme Soviet of the USSR. > > I Lee Harvey Oswald, request that I be granted citizenship in the Soviet Union. My visa began on Oct. 15, and will expire on Oct. 21. I must be granted asylum before this date, while I wait for the citizenship decision. > > At present I am a citizen of the United States of America. > > I want citizenship because; I am a communist and a worker. I have lived in a decadent capitalist society where the workers are slaves. I am twenty years old, I have completed three years in the United States Marine Corps, I served with the occupation forces in Japan. I have seen American imperialism in all its forms. > > I do not want to return to any country outside of the Soviet Union. > > I am willing to give up my American citizenship and assume the responsibilities of a Soviet citizen. > > I had saved my money which I earned as a private in the American military for two years, in order to come to Russia for the express purpose of seeking citizenship here. I do not have enough money left to live indefinitely here, or to return to any other country. I have no desire to return to any other country. I ask that my request be given quick consideration. > > Sincerely, > > Lee H. Oswald Source: [Lee Harvey Oswald in Moscow Part 1](http://www.russianbooks.org/oswald/moscow1.htm) > [@](#): > > On the same date, {October 20} the deputy chief of the KGB, Alexander Perepelitsyn, signs a form letter from the KGB to the Supreme Soviet Secretary, stating that in their opinion, granting Oswald citizenship is “inadvisable” or “pointless.” (netselesoobraznim) This is a term that will appear in Oswald’s Soviet files for some time to come, which could mean both, “inadvisable” or “pointless.” In interpreting the KGB’s evaluation of Oswald as a potential defector, the ambiguity of the term will be problematic within the limited scope of the documents declassified in 1999. If “unadvisable” it may suggest that the KGB fears that Oswald might be a security threat; if “pointless” it suggests that Oswald is considered worthless as an intelligence source. Source: Ibid. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-renounce-my-citizenship/350488/17 "2006-03-30T08:23:17Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Thanks, all. I’d assume it’s pretty similar over here (although there may be European complications). Don’t assume that. There’s no reason why the citizenship laws of another country should be modelled on those of the US. Irish citizens, for example, cannot renounce Irish citizenship. No matter what they do, and where, they will always be Irish citizens. Equally, they cannot be deprived of Irish citizenship by a government decision. So nobody can answer the question raised in this thread without first asking “what is the citizenship that you wish to renounce”? ---
**Author:** ![Gymnopithys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@Gymnopithys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gymnopithys)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-renounce-my-citizenship/350488/18 "2006-03-30T10:29:58Z")
Year ago Gary Something (Stile ?) renounced his American citizenship to become Citizen of the world. The experiment failed and he regained his citizenship. That’s all I can remember, but somebody probably remember the story… ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-renounce-my-citizenship/350488/19 "2006-03-30T13:11:00Z")
> [@Helen's Eidolon](#): > > [The Master speaks.](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_229.html) Whatever the master says, I have three children and four grandchildren, all dual (Canada/US) and no one gives a hoot. Well, there was one. My son interviewed with the NSA and they told him that to work for them he would be required to renounce his Canadian citizenship. People kept telling me that at age 21 (or maybe 18) they would be “required” to choose. Well, nobody asked and they didn’t volunteer. I was astonished that there is no way to renounce, while remaining in the US. Of course, they couldn’t send you anywhere since no place is obligated to take you. It certainly doesn’t avoid taxes since all residents are subject to tax. As for taxing non-citizen non-residents, lots of luck. They are certainly not going to extradite you for that, not from Canada anyway. Incidentally, the guy I know who renounced eventually got the draft-dodging charges dropped (Jimmy Carter’s amnesty), became a Canadian citizen ASAP and now travels freely anywhere (anywhere you travel freely, anyway). They used to remove your citizenship automatically if you applied for and received a foreign citizenship (the applied for was crucial; if the citizenship was awarded automatically, this didn’t apply). That hasn’t been true for a couple of decades at least. SCOTUS ruled that absent a specific showing of intent to renounce, they couldn’t just take it away. At that point, the state dept gave up. Although it is off-topic, I might mention that the current president of Latvia used to be a Canadian citizen. She had to renounce that citizenship in order to become the head of another state. But she was told that she get it back in a week if she asked for it. Of course, that is not the usual situation of a renunciant. ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-renounce-my-citizenship/350488/20 "2006-03-30T14:12:12Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > Source: [McAdams's Kennedy Assassination Home Page Index](http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/stuck3.htm) > > Source: [Lee Harvey Oswald in Moscow Part 1](http://www.russianbooks.org/oswald/moscow1.htm) > Source: Ibid. Thanks, **Duckster** , for clearing the matter up. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-renounce-my-citizenship/350488.md?page=2)