# Can I report these bastard for fraud? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 27, 2014, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-report-these-bastard-for-fraud/679902 "2014-01-27T23:16:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-report-these-bastard-for-fraud/679902/61 "2014-01-29T22:21:46Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > The porn hub live is free too unless you actually want to talk to one of the webcam girls. Which I never did, I just wanted to check the site out. I felt safe doing it because porn hub is like one of the biggest sites out there. I wouldn’t think a website that big would do something like that. Heavens, no! Pornographers are the most purehearted benevolent souls in the whole of creation. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-report-these-bastard-for-fraud/679902/62 "2014-01-29T23:42:39Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > Sure they CAN. Any business has the right to change its prices. How is that relevant to the conversation? You may have a point if they actually did change their prices, but they didn’t. Hey!, the goalpost would look good here… no, wait, how about here!.. no… maybe over there… Someone beat me to it, still if you you had a shred a integrity you’d cough up a membership for me. Better yet, just send me your credit card info. I promise not to charge my SDMB membership on it (no, really, do your homework!). I’ll do you a favor, for your future porn browsing needs check out Tumblr or Xhamster. No need for a CC. Your welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-report-these-bastard-for-fraud/679902/63 "2014-01-30T00:03:09Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > Hey!, the goalpost would look good here… no, wait, how about here!.. no… maybe over there… > > Someone beat me to it, still if you you had a shred a integrity you’d cough up a membership for me. Better yet, just send me your credit card info. I promise not to charge my SDMB membership on it (no, really, do your homework!). > > I’ll do you a favor, for your future porn browsing needs check out Tumblr or Xhamster. No need for a CC. > > Your welcome. I didn’t move the goal posts. That’s only your perception of it. I explained why this is so earlier. If you fail to grasp the difference, then I don’t know what to tell you. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-report-these-bastard-for-fraud/679902/64 "2014-01-30T01:12:07Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > Which is exactly what **Plainjane** claims is buried deep with in the legalese. > [@](#): > > You acknowledge that Pornhub reserves the right to charge for Pornhub services and to change its fees from time to time in its discretion. Curse their double-dealing mumbo-jumbo, telling you plainly like that with all their fancy lawyer talk! ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-report-these-bastard-for-fraud/679902/65 "2014-01-30T01:28:28Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > Curse their double-dealing mumbo-jumbo, telling you plainly like that with all their fancy lawyer talk! As has been explained before, they didn’t change their prices. Go to the website right now, it still says membership is free. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-report-these-bastard-for-fraud/679902/66 "2014-01-30T01:47:53Z")
Here are the terms and conditions for Porn Hub Live (the t&c pointed out above was for regular PornHub). Link broken behind spoiler (no porn on page, but porn in link title): http: [//pornhublive.cams.pm/go/page/terms\_of\_use.html?&who=r,A3a1fmKSBm57Me9LFvaDz8DuFhlJwyKg8keMx82Ov2iW1XLht8/aZqqxKRKpSTptlH3E5WigFOD7mrfx8G1s6i6rdNJZzJzOTWAOX0\_A7gki0viSgB6E05VXdS4Ixwt67j9VClIQxyRTyJ2lBnHjW3VzrzmGcufSsFQJHsGm9Ds-&dcb=pornhublive.cams.pm](https://pornhublive.cams.pm/go/page/terms_of_use.html?&who=r,A3a1fmKSBm57Me9LFvaDz8DuFhlJwyKg8keMx82Ov2iW1XLht8/aZqqxKRKpSTptlH3E5WigFOD7mrfx8G1s6i6rdNJZzJzOTWAOX0_A7gki0viSgB6E05VXdS4Ixwt67j9VClIQxyRTyJ2lBnHjW3VzrzmGcufSsFQJHsGm9Ds-&dcb=pornhublive.cams.pm) Section 14 seems the most relevant. Bolding is mine, though not the upper case letters. They did that… you know, to make it super clear to people like \*\*Shakes \*\*that they’re going to eventually charge you at some point. > [@](#): > > Subscription, Usage and Foreign Transaction Fees; Promotional Credits. > (a) Subscription Fees. Certain Services are subject to subscription fees (“Subscription Fees”). \*\*These Subscription Fees are provided to you upon registration and may change from time to time. Unless otherwise indicated, Subscriptions Fees cover an initial period, for which there is a one time charge, followed by recurring periodic charges for subsequent periods as agreed to by you upon registration. \*\***You acknowledge that your subscription has an initial and recurring payment feature and you accept responsibility for all recurring charges prior to cancellation. WE MAY SUBMIT PERIODIC CHARGES (E.G., MONTHLY) WITHOUT FURTHER AUTHORIZATION FROM YOU, UNTIL YOU PROVIDE PRIOR NOTICE (CONFIRMED IN WRITING AT OUR REQUEST) THAT YOU HAVE TERMINATED THIS AUTHORIZATION OR WISH TO CHANGE YOUR PAYMENT METHOD. SUCH NOTICE WILL NOT AFFECT CHARGES APPLIED BEFORE WE CAN REASONABLY ACT.** TO TERMINATE YOUR AUTHORIZATION OR CHANGE YOUR PAYMENT METHOD FOR SUBSCRIPTIONS, GO TO THE BILLING HISTORY PAGE. > > (b) Other Fees. Certain other Services may require you to make one-time payments or prepay certain amounts for credits, tokens, digital items or goods which may be redeemed solely for specified Services (“Credits”). Credits, as well as unused balances as described in Section 14(c), may not be redeemed for cash and may not be returned or forfeited for a cash refund, except as may be required by applicable law. In addition, Credits and unused balances are not transferable. > > (c) Usage Fees. Certain Services may require a sufficient balance of funds in your Account against which usage or similar fees (e.g., pay per minute or pay per view) may be charged. If you have not logged into your Account in the previous 180 days, we reserve the right, in our sole discretion, and without notice or liability to you, to charge you in the following month(s) an Account maintenance fee equal to $5 per month or, if less than $5 remains in your Account, the remaining funds. The Account maintenance fee will only be deducted from the funds remaining in your Account. Your credit card(s) on file with us will not be charged, and you will not incur a negative balance, due to any such Account maintenance fee. > > (d) Foreign Transaction Fees. We may use credit card processors or banks outside the United States to process your transactions. In some instances, your bank or credit card issuer may charge you a foreign transaction or similar fee or charge. Before purchasing any Services, please check with your bank or credit card issuer for more information about its policies regarding foreign transaction and similar fees and charges. > > (e) Promotional Credits. You expressly acknowledge that any promotion that provides points, pre-recorded shows, or similar credits or benefits (collectively, “Promotional Credits”) may be terminated by us in our sole discretion at any time. If you have not logged into your account in the previous 180 days or if your membership is terminated for any reason, your Promotional Credits, if any, will expire and be forfeited. Promotional Credits have no cash value and may not be redeemed for cash, converted for other Services and/or transferred to third-parties. I’d like to donate the yearly subscription you owe me to \*\*PlainJane \*\*please. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-report-these-bastard-for-fraud/679902/67 "2014-01-30T01:50:51Z")
Their main sign-up page says “Join Now! It’s totally FREE! No credit card needed”. However, that’s not a lie and doesn’t contradict what happened here. It’s totally free to sign up. It is. It’s just if you want to enjoy any of the benefits of watching ladies take their clothes off on camera you’ll end up having to pay. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-report-these-bastard-for-fraud/679902/68 "2014-01-30T02:27:16Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > You misrepresent my position just so you can appear to be a smarty-pants and trot out the old “try reading for comprehension” bit? Ha ha, fail. > > No, the scam I was talking about is promising not to charge your credit card yet burying the fine print where they explain\*\* they actually will.\*\* > > Serious question, why do you think they asked for your info if they weren’t going to use it? > [@Bob Ducca](#): > > Here are the terms and conditions for Porn Hub Live (the t&c pointed out above was for regular PornHub). Link broken behind spoiler (no porn on page, but porn in link title): > > http: [//pornhublive.cams.pm/go/page/terms\_of\_use.html?&who=r,A3a1fmKSBm57Me9LFvaDz8DuFhlJwyKg8keMx82Ov2iW1XLht8/aZqqxKRKpSTptlH3E5WigFOD7mrfx8G1s6i6rdNJZzJzOTWAOX0\_A7gki0viSgB6E05VXdS4Ixwt67j9VClIQxyRTyJ2lBnHjW3VzrzmGcufSsFQJHsGm9Ds-&dcb=pornhublive.cams.pm](https://pornhublive.cams.pm/go/page/terms_of_use.html?&who=r,A3a1fmKSBm57Me9LFvaDz8DuFhlJwyKg8keMx82Ov2iW1XLht8/aZqqxKRKpSTptlH3E5WigFOD7mrfx8G1s6i6rdNJZzJzOTWAOX0_A7gki0viSgB6E05VXdS4Ixwt67j9VClIQxyRTyJ2lBnHjW3VzrzmGcufSsFQJHsGm9Ds-&dcb=pornhublive.cams.pm) > > Section 14 seems the most relevant. Bolding is mine, though not the upper case letters. They did that… you know, to make it super clear to people like \*\*Shakes \*\*that they’re going to eventually charge you at some point. > > I’d like to donate the yearly subscription you owe me to \*\*PlainJane \*\*please. If you want to debate the actual meaning of the above legalese then that’s fine. But **Jane’s** exact words were “they actually will”. That’s a big difference between “We reserve the right.” or “we may change”. \*\* I was never notified of a price increase.\*\* Show me in the terms of service where it actually says that they actually _will_ charge me, and I will happily pay for her subscription. When I called the guy on the phone and asked why am I being charged, he wouldn’t tell me, and he begrudgingly refunded my money. Why would he do that if he were perfectly with in his rights to keep said money? ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-report-these-bastard-for-fraud/679902/69 "2014-01-30T02:34:59Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > As has been explained before, they didn’t change their prices. Go to the website right now, it still says membership is free. Why do you suppose they wanted your credit card number, they were stuck on Sudoku? ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-report-these-bastard-for-fraud/679902/70 "2014-01-30T04:09:21Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > If you want to debate the actual meaning of the above legalese then that’s fine. But **Jane’s** exact words were “they actually will”. That’s a big difference between “We reserve the right.” or “we may change”. \*\* I was never notified of a price increase.\*\* Show me in the terms of service where it actually says that they actually _will_ charge me, and I will happily pay for her subscription. Now you are just being silly with your posts. The issue being raised is, is it reasonable to expect a porn site not to charge you if you give then your CC number. Semantic finagling aside, the answer is no. You asked to be shown in the websites own terms that they could charge you. Bob did that. Man up about it already. Further, your justification for your beliefs is that big companies surely wouldn’t pull something like that. _“I felt safe doing it because porn hub is like one of the biggest sites out there. I wouldn’t think a website that big would do something like that.”_ You were shown that was wrong as well. This is just me but when I find myself in a hole… well, you know. And it’s Jain - not Jane. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-report-these-bastard-for-fraud/679902/71 "2014-01-30T04:25:53Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > Now you are just being silly with your posts. The issue being raised is, is it reasonable to expect a porn site not to charge you if you give then your CC number. Semantic finagling aside, the answer is no. > > You asked to be shown in the websites own terms that they could charge you. Bob did that. Man up about it already. > > Further, your justification for your beliefs is that big companies surely wouldn’t pull something like that. _“I felt safe doing it because porn hub is like one of the biggest sites out there. I wouldn’t think a website that big would do something like that.”_ You were shown that was wrong as well. > > This is just me but when I find myself in a hole… well, you know. > > And it’s Jain - not Jane. 😉 From their website: > [@](#): > > Signing up is absolutely free, you will NOT be charged for your membership. We will only verify that your credit card is valid. You will NEVER be charged, unless you are entering any clearly marked paid area of the site. Seems pretty straight forward to me… ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-report-these-bastard-for-fraud/679902/72 "2014-01-30T04:59:08Z")
Where did it say that? Besides, you told us you read all the fine print, but it was pointed out that you obviously didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-report-these-bastard-for-fraud/679902/73 "2014-01-30T05:25:43Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Where did it say that? Besides, you told us you read all the fine print, but it was pointed out that you obviously didn’t. Well, if you go to the website and click “Join” it’s right there. Here’s the thing, if you put something in writing, that’s considered legally binding. It doesn’t matter if it was under the “terms of service” clause. So what we have here are two statements that are totally incongruent. Now, imagine if we were to fight this in a court of law. Which way do you think the court will lean? Temper your answer with the fact that the guy on the phone refunded my money. He did this with out trying to argue why he has the right to charge me, and he also refunded me with out hesitation. Again, why would he refund me if he thought he had the legal right to keep my money? It seems to me if they went through the trouble of using all this tricky wording in order to garner extra revenue, at the very least, they would try to argue “Hey! it’s right there in the contract! We’re allowed to charge membership fees whenever we want.” ETA: And I was aware of the fine print. That’s pretty standard for any business. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-report-these-bastard-for-fraud/679902/74 "2014-01-30T05:35:22Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > From their website: > > > [@](#): > > > > Signing up is absolutely free, you will NOT be charged for your membership. We will only verify that your credit card is valid. You will NEVER be charged, unless you are entering any clearly marked paid area of the site. > > Seems pretty straight forward to me… Wait, are you saying that scammers lie!? Seriously, they are counting on people like you to think it seems pretty straightforward. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-report-these-bastard-for-fraud/679902/75 "2014-01-30T05:48:54Z")
Your porn site is owned by [naiaddev.com](http://hostcabi.net/domain/naiaddev.com), based in Seattle. They don’t seem to have a good reputation when it comes to [customer relations](http://www.webutations.net/go/review/naiaddev.com), but they do seem to be virus-free. [Statshow](http://www.statshow.com/www/naiaddev.com#website_reputation) says > [@](#): > > Trustworthiness: 5 (Very Poor) > Vendor Reliability: 5 (Very Poor) > Privacy: 5 (Very Poor) > Child Safety: 2 (Very Poor) ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-report-these-bastard-for-fraud/679902/76 "2014-01-30T05:49:45Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > Wait, are you saying that scammers lie!? > > Seriously, they are counting on people like you to think it seems pretty straightforward. No, what I’m saying is what they put in writing is legally binding. And counting on people like me who got a full refund? :dubious: Please, do tell me how “people like me” drives their business model. It doesn’t sound too profitable to me. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-report-these-bastard-for-fraud/679902/77 "2014-01-30T08:25:48Z")
I strongly suspect that you used a service that you assumed was free but in fact was paying. This being made deliberatly unclear by the website For instance, since we’re talking about cam girls, you could have assumed that only watching the girls’show was a paying service, while in fact merely looking up their profile, or watching some sample video was a paying service, this being mentioned in fine print when you acceded the profiles/samples/whatever. No need to mention that this is purely a guess and not in any way related to any kind of similar experience I could have had in the past. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![lost4life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@lost4life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lost4life)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-report-these-bastard-for-fraud/679902/78 "2014-01-30T14:35:45Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Ding! Ding! Ding! You win a year’s membership on this board, compliments of **Shakes**! Now all he has to do is give the SD his credit card number. What’s the worst that can happen! ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-report-these-bastard-for-fraud/679902/79 "2014-01-30T15:15:37Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > From their website: > > > [@](#): > > > > Signing up is absolutely free, you will NOT be charged for your membership. We will only verify that your credit card is valid. You will NEVER be charged, unless you are entering any clearly marked paid area of the site. > > Seems pretty straight forward to me… Ok, it’s looking like Shakes is just full of shit at this point and trying madly to save some face in this thread, which he probably wishes he could take back. I’m on the join page right now and there’s nothing even close to what he quoted posted there. It’s asking for a username and email address, at which point they’ll send me a password. In the name of science, I went ahead and gave them a username and throwaway email address to move on to the next step. Want to play along? Links are all to imgur pages where I’ve posted screencaps. I’ve blocked out my personal information as well as any pictures that you might not want popping up at work. After I gave the site my username and email address,[it took me to this page](http://i.imgur.com/5M0jEeS.jpg) where it gives me the steps on validating my email address. No mention of credit cards whatsoever. Here is [the email they sent me with my password](http://i.imgur.com/zHxGRiu.jpg). Once again, seems are pretty straightforward and no mention of needing a credit card. Ok, so I’m sure once I enter in the password they gave me I’ll end up on a screen that Shakes is talking about, where they promise to never ever charge my credit card, scout’s honor. Oh wait, this is[the next page once I enter my password](http://i.imgur.com/0Pjykky.jpg). They are in fact asking me for my credit card. Those bastards! I bet that fine print is on this page telling me not to worry, that they’ll never charge me. Oh wait, nope. In fact, just the opposite in fact. It asks me straight up to fund my account w/ my credit card in order to chat privately with their models, along with some other perks for paid members. The only fine print I can find on this page is where it tells me that charges will appear as STREAMRAY . COM. Since I don’t want this porno site to have my credit card number, because THEY WILL CHARGE ME, I closed out of this screen without giving them any info. I’ve now signed up for a free account but didn’t give them a credit card and wasn’t required to do so at any step (unless I wanted to get into the good stuff on their site). **Shakes** , please show me on these screencaps where the text you quoted is to be found. Maybe I’m just missing it. ETA: When you enter your emailed password on the page shown on the first screencap there, you’re telling them that you read the Terms and Conditions, which include lots of info on how they’re going to eventually charge your credit card. Given that you didn’t even read the T&C, how can you be pissed off at them at this point. And of course they gave you a refund. It’s $20 and it’s easier to refund that sort of thing than turn it into a big fight. It’s the same way at McDonald’s. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-report-these-bastard-for-fraud/679902/80 "2014-01-30T15:42:43Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > **Shakes** , please show me on these screencaps where the text you quoted is to be found. Maybe I’m just missing it. > > ETA: When you enter your emailed password on the page shown on the first screencap there, you’re telling them that you read the Terms and Conditions, which include lots of info on how they’re going to eventually charge your credit card. Given that you didn’t even read the T&C, how can you be pissed off at them at this point. > > And of course they gave you a refund. It’s $20 and it’s easier to refund that sort of thing than turn it into a big fight. It’s the same way at McDonald’s. You’re missing it. Go to Porn hub live\> click the yellow “join free” button at the top. It’s right there under the big bold letters that say “Create your FREE account now” As to the rest of your post, I’m not going to rehash this whole argument all over again **Bob**. At this point were just talking right past each other. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-report-these-bastard-for-fraud/679902.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-report-these-bastard-for-fraud/679902.md?page=5)